God, the Borg and the art of relative spotting.

[Tero]

Originally posted by JonS:

Yes, quite right. What were those Germans thinking, trying to take over the world with crappy maps.

I still find it totally incredible that they spent what, four years in France and never got around to making proper maps of it. I expect they used in 1944 the same Michelin maps they had used in 1940.

[Battlefront.com]

Oh it is worse than that when you look at what the Germans had going into the Soviet Union! The maps were not only horribly incomplete, but they were also notoriously inaccurate. The type of survey work needed for this simply didn't exist and therefore the Germans were kinda SOL for reasons beyond their control.

A bunch of years back I held some original 1941 German maps in my hands. They were for a variety of medium and large cities in the Soviet Union. Looking at them it was clear why the Germans lost so many mean in the first year of the war... they were literally lost I remember a fairly big city, like Kiev (I think that was the one) being one of the maps I looked at. There were a couple of major streets laid out, but no details about buildings. Just colored areas which represented built up areas. No side streets, alley ways, secondary arteries, or anything else like that was noted. There were, however, a few notations of key buildings such as the seat of local government, a big church or two, and a tiny handful of other things. That was IT!

It sorta looked like someone had taken a really good, totally accruate map, placed a piece of tracing paper over it, traced a few things, and then printed it up for the troops. It was that horrible. And this was for a MAJOR urban area, so use your imagination as to the way smaller locations were mapped

Steve

[Andreas]

My grandfather still has two very good 1:50k maps (Schiesskarten quality for counter battery work) from the Luga and Volkhov areas, respectively (Lord knows where he nicked them), based on captured Soviet maps.

In the AG North area the Germans found a railway line they did not know existed, and roads appearing out of nowhere, or presumed roads being non-existent seems to have been a relatively common occurence.

[Wartgamer]

I suppose having air supremeacy and good weather could help. The air force acting as a top down viewpoint to relay info.

[JonS]

Not necessarily. See: Mogadishu and TF Ranger.

[Andreas]

The German short-range air recon flights (with Hs 126) directly attached to Panzerdivisions or Panzerkorps did a great job in France, and in early Barbarossa acting as eyes of the unit they were attached to. Their losses were never made good, and every officer with a staff job in either of the Grosseinheiten mentioning them mentions the severity of losing them.

Hs 126

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Dirtweasle, Admiral Keth & our other resident brewers, what say you? I don't have much in stock right now, but give be a couple months to brew up, and I'm in for a few bottles. . .

Wait a minute guys! You don't want to get the BFC crew so loaded that they are incapacitated, you know. I mean, I'd hate to think of Dan, for instance, reduced to drawing pink Mickey Mice, or something equally whimsical and absurd. (Although pink naked slave girls would be alright. )

What I suggest is that you send all shipments to me for vetting first, so that I can ration their intake to safe levels and production can continue on schedule without alcohol-induced boners. I offer this service out of a sense of selfless commitment to the CM community, of course.

Michael

[Herr Oberst]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Oh it is worse than that when you look at what the Germans had going into the Soviet Union! The maps were not only horribly incomplete, but they were also notoriously inaccurate. The type of survey work needed for this simply didn't exist and therefore the Germans were kinda SOL for reasons beyond their control.

A bunch of years back I held some original 1941 German maps in my hands. They were for a variety of medium and large cities in the Soviet Union. Looking at them it was clear why the Germans lost so many mean in the first year of the war... they were literally lost I remember a fairly big city, like Kiev (I think that was the one) being one of the maps I looked at. There were a couple of major streets laid out, but no details about buildings. Just colored areas which represented built up areas. No side streets, alley ways, secondary arteries, or anything else like that was noted. There were, however, a few notations of key buildings such as the seat of local government, a big church or two, and a tiny handful of other things. That was IT!

It sorta looked like someone had taken a really good, totally accruate map, placed a piece of tracing paper over it, traced a few things, and then printed it up for the troops. It was that horrible. And this was for a MAJOR urban area, so use your imagination as to the way smaller locations were mapped

Steve

Aah, sounds like time for another trip to the Library of Congress in DC for some more of my hard earned clams fed into the color copy machine down in the cartography section... they have a pretty good selection of captured maps. The folks there give you some strange looks when you ask "Do you have any 1:50,000 Schiesskarte from grid O-32?" I did manage to copy a good set from the Kertch peninsula, and a few other areas...

[Andreas]

What's the date stamp on that one? Mapping certainly improved over time.

I need to have a look at my grandfather's maps again, but I am reasonably certain that the later one (Volkhov) is much better than the earlier one (Luga), which is from September 1941.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

My grandfather still has two very good 1:50k maps (Schiesskarten quality for counter battery work) from the Luga and Volkhov areas, respectively (Lord knows where he nicked them), based on captured Soviet maps.

In the AG North area the Germans found a railway line they did not know existed, and roads appearing out of nowhere, or presumed roads being non-existent seems to have been a relatively common occurence.

I remember reading somewhere several years back that the Soviets had quite deliberately restricted the release of geographical information. First of all, travel, especially for foreigners, inside the USSR was quite restricted. Secondly, such maps as were made available in the West invariably were incomplete and misleading. In addition to the roads and railroads you mention, whole towns might be missing, and cities were often displaced tens of kilometers from their true locations. I don't recall specific mention of natural features such as forests, rivers, and such, but I wouldn't be in the least surprised to learn that those too had been tinkered with.

According to my source, this does not appear to be exclusively due to poor Soviet topographic skills, but was part of a long-standing policy intended to make things difficult for prospective invaders. Indeed, I understand that this was continued well into the Cold WAr era. Presumably, they were hoping that the bombers would get lost. Once satellite surveilance became common, the CIA was often surprised to discover the true location (let alone the very existence) of many topographic features.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Michael,

I recall the same thing. However, the vastness of the Soviet Union, and the... uhm... problems within its government, did mean that information was incomplete and/or inaccurate even for the Soviets. The difference is that the Soviets could suplement the missing/inaccurate data with other information that the Germans lacked. For instance, the units operating along the 1940 boundaries knew the major routes and basic population centers since they were physically there for months if not years. Also, each country kinda has its own way of organizing itself, so a native force is more likely to be able to guess and anticipate when information is lacking as opposed to an outside force.

Steve

[Wartgamer]

Many ETO US vets mention the FOs in the light aircraft in glowing terms.

They were not only eyes but teeth. They could help any ground commander by throwing rounds into known enemy forming up points, positions, etc.

This 'pointing' could help any commander savvy enough to use the intel.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I recall the same thing. However, the vastness of the Soviet Union, and the... uhm... problems within its government, did mean that information was incomplete and/or inaccurate even for the Soviets. The difference is that the Soviets could suplement the missing/inaccurate data with other information that the Germans lacked. For instance, the units operating along the 1940 boundaries knew the major routes and basic population centers since they were physically there for months if not years. Also, each country kinda has its own way of organizing itself, so a native force is more likely to be able to guess and anticipate when information is lacking as opposed to an outside force.

In stark contrast they had all the major Mannerheim line installations and the road net and bridges in the Finnish side accurately mapped and photographed prior to their invasion in 1939.

EDIT: as the war progressed the Red Army got very adebt in accurately locating and mapping enemy positions in preparation of their operations.

[ March 08, 2005, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Tero ]

[Herr Oberst]

Originally posted by Andreas:

What's the date stamp on that one? Mapping certainly improved over time.

I need to have a look at my grandfather's maps again, but I am reasonably certain that the later one (Volkhov) is much better than the earlier one (Luga), which is from September 1941.

I'll have to go through my stack and see what I have...

[Battlefront.com]

Tero,

Yes, and contrast THAT with what the Germans had on Soviet positions prior to Barbarossa... practically nothing. IIRC the Germans valued surprise so highly that higher authorities (OKH I think) prevented meaningful aerial recon until just prior to the invasion and, of course, after. AG Nord had the most problems since the terrain was the most difficult of the three axis of advance.

Steve

[c3k]

Gents,

Two points: First, maps in the Soviet Union were regarded as top secret documents. This is from a former air attache who spent many Cold War years seeking ground truths. Second, on stairs and building modelling, I suggest a player aid to locate stairs in a building to be a simple white block. (ASL humor)

Ken

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Tero,

Yes, and contrast THAT with what the Germans had on Soviet positions prior to Barbarossa... practically nothing. IIRC the Germans valued surprise so highly that higher authorities (OKH I think) prevented meaningful aerial recon until just prior to the invasion and, of course, after. AG Nord had the most problems since the terrain was the most difficult of the three axis of advance.

Steve

One notable exception would be Brest-Litovsk, which the Germans had garrisoned for a while during/after WWI, I think. Not that it seems to have helped much after the initial assault into the fortress...

[Herr Oberst]

Since I know you're all dying to know, here is what is in Herr Oberst's map library:

Grids come off a 1:100,000 Russland Originalkarten master map

1:50,000 unless otherwise noted

Mius River Bend area

L-37-6-A, Bol.-Meschkowa, Ausgabe vom IV 43

L-37-6-B, DmitrijewkaL-37-6-B, Ausgabe vom III 43

L-37-6-C, Uspenskaja, Ausgabe vom IV 43

L-37-6-D, Kuibyschewo, Ausgabe von III 43

Kertsch area

L-37-85-C, Majak-SSalyn, Ausgabe V24.V.43

L-37-85-D, Kertsch, Ausgabe v. 4.VI.43

Marfowka Area

L-37-97-A, Marfowka, Ausgabe v.4.VI.43

L-37-97-B, Star. Karantin (Gorkom), Ausgabe v.4.VI.43

Rostow Area

L-37-32-A, Rostow, Stand 21.XI.41

L-37-32-B, Akssaiskaja, Stand 22.XI.41

O-35-12-A, Bol. <sumfink>, Ausgabe vom V.43

O-35-12-B, Peternot, Ausgabe

O-35-12-C, Djatlizy, Ausgabe vom V.43

O-35-12-D, Ropscha, Ausgabe vom I.43

O-36-1-A, Strelna, Ausgabe vom V.43

O-36-1-B, Leningrad, Ausgabe vom V.43

O-36-1-C, Krassnojew Sselo, Ausgabe vom XI.42

O-36-1-D, Puschkin, Ausgabe vom XI.42

O-36-2-A, Rschewka, Ausgabe vom I.43

O-36-2-B, Newskaja Dubrowka, Ausgabe vom v.43

O-36-2-C, Kolpino, Ausgabe vom IV.43

O-36-2-D, Nikolskoje, Ausgabe vom I.43

1:300,000 Stalingrad (big, good for operations, but lacking the detail for specific topography in a battle)

[Andreas]

What is the Pushkin map like?

[JonS]

mappy

[Herr Oberst]

Originally posted by Andreas:

What is the Pushkin map like?

Puschkin is pretty dense as far as the map goes around the city... dense enough to obscure most elevation marks, but gives you a good idea of the road network and relative density and size of buildings. Russian names w/German names.

If you want approaches from the north-west, it'd be ok for roads and rails, but its a pretty populated area (at least from the map).

The city is in the south-eastern portion of this grid. This one will get you about 4 km in any direction south or east, much much farther north or west. You'd need O-36-2-A & C to get the eastern approaches, and O-36-13-A & B to get the southern approaches if you had an operation in mind...

[aka_tom_w]

old thread bump

[Kip Watson]

I know I'm late in, but I liked the questions about buildings. The abstraction level sounds about right. Enough to see the effects of urban combat tactics - grenades through windows, kicking in doors, blowing interior walls etc... That would be cool, too much more might even detract.

The pre-fab building idea is a pretty good one too (ie. like the existing factory tile options), and one where the limited module scope would make it entirely practical. ie. within a very specific time frame and geography, how many potential different types of very big buildings would be needed? - not very many I would think.