M7 Priest as Artillery?

[realest]

Is it possible to use the M7 Priest as indirect fire artillery with a spotter?? Dang if i have figured out how, if possible.

It seems to be a infantry killer in the game, not something i can sit back and pound areas with. I thought the M7 was often used as support Artillery, not roll up to the front line grunts while the TC yells down "Where are the Nat-zees?" *as he spits his chewing tobacco*

[The Schwabian]

The M7's indirect fire mode is simulated through the 105mm Arty Spotter.

When they are on the battlefield, they are representing a priest that somehow became involved in the battle. Close support/direct fire?

[The_Enigma]

Slap the dude with some good los on something and pound the crap outter it?

[Wicky]

In Harry Yeide's 'The Longest Battle' he makes reference to allied direct fire SP 155mm being employed in and around the West Wall - Aachen to root out deeply dug in defenders / block to block fighting.

It seems that 75 was inneffective against concerete bunkers but DF 105mm and 155 mmm HE had sufficient concussion to get bunker crews to abandon.

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

I've read a bunch of historical accounts of this and can further report the German commander felt it was most unfair using 155mm guns in DF mode. Believe the weapons were M12s.

(pauses and checks)

This confirms my recollection. Note the where employed statement at link.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/self_propelled_guns/m12_gun_motor_carriage.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[DerBlitzer]

The answer to the original question is NO. You can't use indirect fire with Priests; they must have a direct LOS to the target, which means they last all of about three turns before some enemy tank lines one up and fires a softball to kill it. Keep them well back from the front lines, well hidden, and use them to destroy infantry and buildings.

[realest]

It's what i did Blitz. I just wasn't sure if i was missing how to utilize a piece of the game. I was playing "Italian Countryside" operation. I had as many M7 Priests as i did Shermans. It was an interesting operation, but keeping your armor rolled up with your grunts made it to easy to overcome stiff infantry opposition.

I think i had about 15 Priests by the end.

[John Kettler]

realest,

For the record, your problem is but the latest version of a gripe which goes back to CMBO. The gist of it is that certain weapons which ought, given a big enough map, to be able to switch back and forth between indirect fire and direct fire can't. This includes IGs (including the powerful, short ranged sIG33, a regimental weapon), pack howitzers, and certain SPs. The upshot of this is that if you wish to be able to carry out both functions in a given battle, you have to buy twice. IOW, you need to buy both guns and an appropriate FO. Am hoping the new game engine does away with this galling issue.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Other Means]

It would take quite a while to set up a piece for indirect fire wouldn't it?

My expectation is that it wouldn't be done under fire, I don't know how accurate that is.

If you want to buy a Priest, roll it up and wait for 120 turns while it sights and sets up comms then you play very differently to me. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily

[John Kettler]

Other Means,

That's one way of looking at it, but here's another.

The already surveyed in gun line is under attack, so close that indirect fire no longer works. This happened on a number of occasions in the Western Desert and less often in other locales. I believe there was at least one instance in which U.S. 105mm howitzer batteries had to repel attack via direct fire. Certainly, the Germans and the Russians had such problems in the fluid combat on the Eastern Front, and there was even a ROW scenario which depicted a German attack which reached the British gunline. The guns can't always leave when under pressure. Sometimes they have to stand and fight.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Other Means]

True. And then go straight back to indirect fire? Probably not.

[JasonC]

I've set up 155mm SP pieces to fire indirect in less than 2 minutes. That is the training standard in the US army. When the fire order is received while physically underway on a road, it is called a "hip shoot" and you have 5 minutes.

Can you do it under fire? No reason you couldn't. Does require setting up a field compass next to the gun, and some forms involve aiming stakes and can take slightly longer and expose a few more people. (You can dispense with the latter using prominent terrain features, though - OK if the gunner is good, slightly less accurate if he isn't). But it emphatically does not take 2 hours.

All you are doing is establishing a plotted position for the gun, by shooting angles to 2 distant points and getting them right to half a mil accuracy. Those two lines then cross on a map in the fire direction center, and the battery commander and fire control team knows exactly where the gun is. They then use that plotted position to calculate deflections to fire to hit the plotted aim point on the same map, when a fire request is received.

A few other minor physical tasks - lowering some braces etc - accomplished whenever you pull into position. In the case of a towed gun, the set up also involves getting the ammo operation ready - also true for SP beyond the first few dozen rounds. The gun can be firing before that it done, it doesn't take more than about 5 minutes, and ends with a flock of shells in all the stages of prep from still in the box to ready to fire, basically.

As for gun lines firing direct when attacked, not only did it happen, it happened a lot. Many attacks made it through the front line infantry battalions but were stopped at the gun line - in North Africa (Brits with 25 pdrs especially, also US in Tunisia twice), in Italy, in Lorraine, in the Bulge. And Korea, vs the Chinese initial attack in particular (a lot that time). Also happened with SP battalions rather emplaced towed, in Lorraine and the Bulge. Not to mention fortified fire bases in Nam.

An artillery battery in position is not a soft target. (By doctrine and SOP, it also includes emplaced MG positions to guard the battery perimeter etc). The best weapon to use against it is your own called indirect fire. Night infantry attack is a decent second, if you can get any kind of surprise.

[Other Means]

Was this any different in WWII? I can't see why it should be apart from doctrine and lack of decent maps but I've no real idea.

Would a battery go back to indirect after firing DF in self defence? I'd have though everyone would be real twitchy about it, but again I guess there's no real reason why not.

I think what was colouring my thinking was reports of 25pdr's taking a day to set up and so being too far behind the lines.

OTOH, I've also heard JonS citing an incredibly low figure for a snap-shoot of a CW battery in WWII. Less than a minute FWIR.

In which case - yes J/K, I'd agree it would be good to get on-map indirect fire. Maybe for SF

[realest]

Well, i've seen mortars set up and shots departed in a minute or so. Other than the moving parts, a gun is a gun. Some may take more manpower and a little extra time, however with properly trained crew, minutes should be on target.

I had a FO a few nights ago, he had 120 rounds of 105 HE got himself killed. All 120 rnds fell on my poor fellas heads....... what a catastrophe.

[MikeyD]

About switching from direct to indirect fire, I suppose one can imagine during a hectic Bulge battle an Allied artillery battery being fired on by roving enemy recon units while doing vital fire support for hard-pressed infantry. Then, after successsfully defending themselves they would waste little time getting back to the business of helping out the threatened G.I.s. But if this is all happening on-map thats one huge complex scenario you're playing there!

About on-board artillery for SF, latest word is they aren't even supplying any on-board artillery pieces for DIRECT fire! So no on-board indirect artillery fire in that game either.

[realest]

Mikey, i'd a thought they would have worked like a mortar.

In so far as game mechanics are concerned, why not? I spent 3 out of 6 battles running those dam things to all types of HQ units to try and get indirect fire support out of them, then finally gave up and drove them up to the front and leveled the village and pounded the crap out of everything in my way. I had so many of them they even took out a panther by immobilizing and the crew bailed.

[MikeyD]

Well, the Priests especially don't have a very high max gun elevation. For high angle fire they'd need to build ramps to tilt the whole vehicle up. A low max gun angle means the minimum indirect firing distance is going to be far-far away.

But that's just the Priest. The towed 105mm Howitzer, 75mm Pack howitzer and M8 GMC could elevate to near mortar elevation I guess - but you'd still need a pretty big map to see where the round fell. One doesn't often fire a cannon straight up in order to hit a target 300m away!

I've played maps that would've been ideal for 75mm Pack howitzers doing indirect fire, if only the game engine permitted. But the little 75mm Pack howitzer is mighty rare in CMAK. Only shows up with Paratroopers and 10th Mountain Division, I belive. The little German 75mm infantry gun equivalent shows up much more often.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Other Means:

I've also heard JonS citing an incredibly low figure for a snap-shoot of a CW battery in WWII. Less than a minute FWIR.

Something like 25 seconds from receipt of order to first round fired. But that was in training, and the gun crew were keyed up for the receipt of the order, and it was only one gun firing. Oh, that was Spike Milligan, of all people Also, using that method the first round is pretty inaccurate, so a lot of subsequent time would be consumed with adjustment before you went to FFE.

Current doctrine here for towed guns moving in to a recced posn is that the bty reports ready as soon as the first gun is ready to fire. The assumption being that the other guns won't be far behind, and anyway with one gun you can get fire onto a target, albeit at lower densities. That usually takes about 5-10 minutes from when the tractors first turn up on the position. I don't recall what the training standard is, but I believe it's quite a bit longer that that.

In WWII I expect that the actual drills and times for getting the guns and CPs in to action would be comparable to today (although far less automated equipment, of course). The biggest time difference would be in establishing and maintaining comms.

On topic edit: I've played opn maps large enough for various weapons firing indirect at near minimum range to have been represented on-map. Do I want them to be? Not really. If they can fire indirect, get an FO. If they should be firing direct, get the guns. To me there seems to be about as much point physically representing a bty firing indirect as there does having a field hospital, an ammo dump, or a bde HQ on map.

[ December 13, 2006, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[John Kettler]

Didn't Blackburn's 25 pdr. battery in Normandy mount fire missions in four minutes or so and do it by deploying straight out of march column? I don't have the books so am working from something someone posted awhile back.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

"A low max gun angle means the minimum indirect firing distance is going to be far-far away"

Only if the laws of physics have been repealed.

When you fire flat the round lands close by. When you raise the tube it lands farther away. Not being able to raise all the way to 45 degrees might prevent you from reaching the maximum theoretical distance of the gun, that is all. You don't have to fire at a 60 degree angle to hit nearby targets, you fire at something much more like 30.

Howitzers sometimes deliberately pick the higher of the two angles (for anything other than a small window around 45 degrees, there are two) that result in the same impact point, to get plunging fire on trenches and to get over trees and such. But ordinary everyday fire uses the lower of the two angles as a matter of course.

[Other Means]

This is a bit of a sidebar, but at what distances would certain calibres be fired from?

i.e. you got a 105 battery at 6k, a 155 at 10k..?

Is that how they'd be positioned?

How would the muzzle flashes be hidden, behind a brow?

Would counter battery ever just be dropped behind a ridge on spec?

Thanks.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Other Means:

This is a bit of a sidebar, but at what distances would certain calibres be fired from? i.e. you got a 105 battery at 6k, a 155 at 10k..?

It depends on lots of things, including the range of the weapon, and the stance of the forces involved.

Looking only at those two (range and stance), typically an attacking force would try to have it's artillery ~1/3 of it's range behind the FEBA. A defending force would typically have it's artillery ~2/3rds of its range behind the FEBA. Generally, heavier weapons will be further back from the FEBA.

Is that how they'd be positioned?

Good access routes for resupply, and reasonably flat, defensible terrain are some of the other factors.

How would the muzzle flashes be hidden, behind a brow?

yes, or trees, or buildings, or anything really. Or sometimes they just suck it up and sit out in the open if that's what the ground and tactical situation demands.

Would counter battery ever just be dropped behind a ridge on spec?

'Ever'? Well, yes, probably. But not 'often'. Map recce (ie, looking at a map and thinking "Where would I put my artillery, if I were the bally hun? What about behind this ridge?") is an important part of CB work, but so is S&F ranging, radar location (even in WWII), direct observation (incl by ArtyR and TacR a/c), crater analysis (shape, size, fragments, direction of splash and long axis of crater, etc), signals intelligence, prisoners, etc.

[civdiv]

Mortar crews were trained to adjust onto targets without a Fire Direction Control team. Atleast mortars up to 81mm. They could either 'eyeball' it, or use a semi-crude firing data generator called a 'whiz whell'. Artillery did not operate that way, they required an FDC. While there are certain procedures that well trained FOs could use to direct artillery fire in the event the arty's FDC was knocked out, it still required the use of a trained artillery FO, and it was rather crude. So when you get a few on-board arty pieces you aren't getting an FDC. Personally, I think the game gets it right. Do you want to have to add a combat ineffective soft unit like an FDC just to allow on-board arty to fire indirect? Sure, an arty unit can start firing in a hip shoot in 5-10 minutes. But that is with a built-in FDC, Comm Section, and the whole command element of an arty unit.

Now if you want to attack an arty unit that is dug-in into a firing position, be aware. Even back in WWII an arty battery had more firepower than an infantry company, even if you subtracted all of the arty pieces. Arty units have a pretty large density of crew served weapons, especially .50 MGs and .30 cals. Nowadays IIRC, a USMC Arty Battery has like 6 Mk-19s, 6 .50 cals, and I don't know how many M240Gs.

[Harry Yeide]

Here's another historically based possibility: The 117th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron replaced its M8 assault guns with M7 Priests before the Dragoon landings. The troopers used them against all sorts of targets, including tanks that were too tough for anything else in the squadron.

[Other Means]

JonS - thanks. Can you give me a rough estimate - if you have one memorised - of the max ranges of the various calibres?

Very rough will do.

Or should I do my own damn research

Also, I never knew about crater analysis. I'd assumed some kind of spread analysis but that the craters were more or less dominated by the HE spread. Live and learn.