fridericus Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 i can remember cmbb starting with worth hit-% and tanks getting too fast immobilized and too fast gun damaged. i got cmak yesterday and played until now 2 online-matches. something i recognized as strange things. all tanks i lost, got a gun-damage before getting killed. every turret-hit damaged the gun immadiately. i tested it against the ai. nearly every hit damaged the gun. in books about ww2 i never read about gundamages as real problem in repair-coys; the real problem there were about engines and small pieces lost by arty. so my questions is: when we will get the first patch? thx, hopefully. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 In the recent memoir "Death Traps" I believe there's mention of having a notable percentage of damaged Shermans what would be considered in the game to be 'gun damage'. This includes gun mount damage, gun recoil damage, gun optics damage, turret ring damage, etc .etc. If you place a low percent probability for each specific thing that could be listed as 'gun damage' cumulatively it starts to add-up. BFC assures us gun damage in the game is only 10% or so (though I must admit it feels higher, probably because its so annoying). Sounds like you had a bit of bad luck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 100% to 10% is a little bit more then just "bad luck". i wrote about german books and german tanks, there i couldnt find this specific problem, and i played as german. in the us-case i dont know the right numbers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 I haven't noticed getting a lot of gun damage myself, but I finished the quick version of "Ambush!" last evening, playing as the Brits and noticed that after the game, the Germans had 6 tanks that had exited the battle due to gun damage. That really surprised me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Two battles doesn't a pattern make. While I'm with Mikey D and get significantly more then 10% gun damaged it does seem you've had an extra ordinary run of bad luck. Most times I get about 1/3 my tanks gun damaged in a battle (depending on the oppositions ability to fight back, offcourse) and that seems a little high to me. But it wasn't as rare as you seem to think it is. I've read numerous reports where tanks were retiring from battle due to being unable to ire the gun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Keep in mind that tanks are a lot harder to kill in CMAK, and thus are shot at a lot more. This means a much greater chance of suffering damage to the gun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRSutton Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Tanks were surprisingly complex. It is not just the gun that gets knocked out. More often it is the gun sight. A solid hit from any large ordinance-even non pentrating would rattle a tank quite hard. Many times the force of the impact would damage of knock the gunsight out of allignment. This would serve to make the MA all but useless in battle and require the tank to withdraw. Very few tankers stuck around after losing the use of their gun. Many tanks carried spare gun sights but would have to withdraw to repair and this would be outside of the time frame of most CM battles. Of course, depending on the conditions and nationality and year, spares may not have been as readily available. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 at least the german tanks with highspeed mainguns could target the enemy without optics, if nesseraliy. but this isnt the important fact. i asked, why suche extremous high numbers of tanks in cmak get a gun-damage by first hit (the stugs without turrets dont have this problem), in a small, 30 min battle, when i couldnt find any remarks about this in the literature? with such behavior of tanks you could never attack 3 days without resting (as described in ww2), when all tanks lose their guns in first 30 min when seeing an enemy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 It is also the case that when tanks are shot at by small caliber anti-tank weapons (particularly auto-cannon), gun hits are much more likely to occur. That is because the small shells can't really penetrate the armor, so about the only damage they can do is to the gun or to the tracks. So, what was shooting at you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 i know this about autocannons. my tanks were fired and gun-damaged by first turret-hit by tank-mainguns, esp 37mm, 75mm, 76mm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by fridericus: i know this about autocannons. my tanks were fired and gun-damaged by first turret-hit by tank-mainguns, esp 37mm, 75mm, 76mm. I know BFC answered this question in both the CMBB and CMBO forums a while back. A search on gun damage will probably answer the question. I think it basically came down to they picked a number that seemed reasonable and unless someone comes up with documented evidence to refute it, it stays. I personally have never had the wild, out-of-control gun damage fests that other people have. I get one per game at most. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by fridericus: with such behavior of tanks you could never attack 3 days without resting (as described in ww2)What literature were you reading, again? Comic books? Even driving a car for 3 days without any rest would be impossible unless you're on amphetamine. I have comen across a lot of mentions of Finnish StuG's having to disengage due to some sort of gun damage. In one account the StuG was about to open fire on advancing Soviet tanks, but when the gunner fired nothing happened: something was wrong with the firing mechanism. So they had to reverse to a safe location and sort it out. It turned out to be some defect in the electrical wiring. Just when that was fixed a Soviet tank showed up - and was destroyed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by fridericus: at least the german tanks with highspeed mainguns could target the enemy without optics, if nesseraliy. but this isnt the important fact. i asked, why suche extremous high numbers of tanks in cmak get a gun-damage by first hit (the stugs without turrets dont have this problem), in a small, 30 min battle, when i couldnt find any remarks about this in the literature? with such behavior of tanks you could never attack 3 days without resting (as described in ww2), when all tanks lose their guns in first 30 min when seeing an enemy. You claim that you tested it against the AI. Fair enough. Tell us how you carried out the tests and how it is unhistorical based on references. I am willing to be converted. I played two TCP/IP pure-armour games yesterday, one in 1941 and one in 1944, and not one of my 30 or so tanks (total) took gun damge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by Sergei: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fridericus: with such behavior of tanks you could never attack 3 days without resting (as described in ww2)What literature were you reading, again? Comic books? Even driving a car for 3 days without any rest would be impossible unless you're on amphetamine. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 @ Sergei: i read official german history of the divisions, no sience fiction. when attacking 3 days, you need more then 1 driver, perhaps the loader drives some hours. just read the manstein AK attacking in teh first days of barbarossa and speak with veterans. myself attacked in cmtc 2 days with only 4 hours of resting, it isnt impossible. btw, german troops got "pervitin" in some cases. @ soddball: i just played some battles pure armor vs the ai and had some 70-80% gun damages. as historical references (there are some more) i propose you: "panzerkampf im bild" by will fey. there is a war diary of a tankcrew (pz4 and panther). the cdr also describes the work of repair coys. in some years of battle no gun-damage was reported - some optics-losts, but in these cases they stayed on battlefield and fired with mgs, targetted through main-gun and "looked dangerous". in some years of battle never happened the things i saw in cmak in 2 battles vs human opponent and some more vs ai. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by fridericus: @ Sergei: @ soddball: i just played some battles pure armor vs the ai and had some 70-80% gun damages. as historical references (there are some more) i propose you: "panzerkampf im bild" by will fey. there is a war diary of a tankcrew (pz4 and panther). the cdr also describes the work of repair coys. in some years of battle no gun-damage was reported - some optics-losts, but in these cases they stayed on battlefield and fired with mgs, targetted through main-gun and "looked dangerous". in some years of battle never happened the things i saw in cmak in 2 battles vs human opponent and some more vs ai. If you are getting 70-80% gun damage, that is a problem, although you and I must be playing completely different games. Has anyone ever had 70-80% gun damage before... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 @ wood: before the 1st patch cmbb had the same problem with the amount of immobilized verhicles and gun-damages. at least for my 2 online-matches i have opponents, who saw my desaster with the broken guns. it is no fiction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebulon Pleasure Beast Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 What game are you playing? I played a huge number of battles this weekend alone and encountered only one gun damage, this being a rather unfortunate Priest who received some hot, HMG42 loving from a second floor 30 meters behind him. Not that the gun was the only thing that got damaged there, poor bastards. I want to encounter this mad gun damage phenomenom too, damn it. I feel like I'm being cheated here. I want my money back! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by fridericus: @ wood: before the 1st patch cmbb had the same problem with the amount of immobilized verhicles and gun-damages. at least for my 2 online-matches i have opponents, who saw my desaster with the broken guns. it is no fiction. It may not be fiction, but its also not as common as you are implying. I was a beta tester, and during that time I didn't see anything out of the ordinary with regards to gun-damaging hits. This was after having played dozens of scenarios and QBs. Nor did the other testers, otherwise we would have alerted each other, and to send in bug reports if a problem actually existed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Fridericus, what? You claim CMAK having a bug? Stop reading comics! You ask yourself, how does it come, that you never read about gun-damage as a big problem, and wonder why you get 100% gun damage in a CMAK battle? You're a fool, if you're asking logical questions, when the answer is so simple: i haven't had that. So it's not there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 @ kingfish: in my amount of matches it was too big. but, with some luck, all of my bad luck in cmak i got in these 2 matches and in the future i wont see it again. @ steiner: yes, you are god and know all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by fridericus: @ kingfish: in my amount of matches it was too big. but, with some luck, all of my bad luck in cmak i got in these 2 matches and in the future i wont see it again. @ steiner: yes, you are god and know all. Fridericus, I think it was bad luck. I will run some tests when I get a chance to see what happens but I don't think there is a problem. I need to know what ranges you were having the issue at, and with what weapons firing at what tanks otherwise I cannot replicate this fault. As for "panzerkampf im bild" by will fey - I haven't read German in 10 years so I think I am unlikely to appreciate it Could you give us a run-down of the relevant parts? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 @ soddball: for details in the battles just ask me via mail. "panzerkampf im bild" means "tank warfare in pictures". some men describe their historical battles, but most is by Will Fey. he was untersturmfuehrer and tankplatoonleader, commanding varouis tanks. in difference to most books the problems of repairing and supplying are well described, in parts in form of a diary. important fact is, that tanks burn out or came for repair just with little damages. most common damage was done by arty to tanks by hitting and destroying "Luefterraeder" (i dont know the right english word: these are wheeles on top of the engine, which exhaust and cool the engine. often they were hit by little parts and have to replaced. never i read a word about a broken gun or destroyed optics; in the opposite side, he writes, that they could see through "kinon-glas", which was hit by AT-rifles, inf-rounds and shrapnels. so i was badly surprised when playing the first time cmak, losing no tank before its gun was down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by fridericus: @ wood: before the 1st patch cmbb had the same problem with the amount of immobilized verhicles and gun-damages. at least for my 2 online-matches i have opponents, who saw my desaster with the broken guns. it is no fiction. Actually, considering the age of CMAK, I have played at least 100 times the number of battles in CMBB. That is where my reference is from. I have played all three CM games through all levels of patching and still never encountered anywhere near the gun damage you are talking about. You also mentioned immobilization. I see more stuck vehicles than gun damaged vehicles, although still not at the levels I have heard by a minority on this forum. I still wonder if I am somehow not playing the same game as some other people. btw, read through the Panzertruppen books and you will see mention of gun damaged vehicles. You do seem to see more immobilized vehicles, but gun damage does show up enough to be mentioned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabidbvr Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Hello one and all... Got a copy of CMAK today have played a few times and only noticed one MKIII out of action due to gun damage... may be a bug as of yet i have not seen it...CMBB seems to be fine as well even prior to the patchs take care all happy Hunting... "All Power Corrupts... Absolute Power is Pretty Cool Though" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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