What's a good piece of kit for dealing with T-34's, early war?

[JamesT73J]

I have a couple of small-scale PBEM games ongoing at present, with me playing as axis, which are good fun, but I've not gone well equipped to deal with heavy tanks, and it's caused me some fairly interesting problems as my inexperience led me to believe I'd encounter more infantry. In fact, In the meeting engagements I've seen a trend toward heavier armour use. My typical force disposition is:

1 x infantry company (occasionally I use recon squads if I want to invest a little more in heavy mg support)

1 x understrength tank platoon (usually three AFVS, mixed, whatever I can afford)

1 x Spotter (75mm radio arty/81mm mortar)

1 x AT Team (AT rifle or bombs)

1 x Recoilless rifle team (small).

1 X kubelwagen (to rapidly position AT or recoiless crews)

On the plus side, it's made me think about infantry vs. tanks far, far more than I'd normally have. I've had my AT and recoiless rifle guys shooting away many a time, but of course there's little they can do to a T-34, save immobilising it if they're lucky.

Anyone recommend some good equipment mixes for 700-1000pts that work well on the offensive?

[Sirocco]

With forward thinking, even a pair of 37mm PaK's are effective on the offensive, as long as you use them correctly and position them to provide mutually supporting cross fire as you advance. Even a T34 will back out of a confrontation with hits to it's front and flank. That can at least buy time to develop an infantry close assault.

[Panzer76]

You have no ATG, big mistake. You should get some captured 76 mm (to deal with whatever he got) and/or 50 mm (for T34s and lighter tanks). Remember to try to get flank shot, hold your fire until you either have multiple fire angles (best) or a good shot, (flank).

[JamesT73J]

The big problem I've had is the 'all round' armour on T-34's - side shots and rear shots don't really help The only chance I'd had with my existing AT teams is when I'd got them elevated and they'd managed to hit the tanks much thinner top armour.

The infantry, when the tanks have strayed close enough, have been brilliant.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by JamesT73J:

The big problem I've had is the 'all round' armour on T-34's - side shots and rear shots don't really help

Don't get so negative this early in the morning! As mentioned, even a 37mm ATG can cause trouble for a T-34, and even get some penetrations if you get lucky. A 50mm should be sufficient, at least at close ranges. T-34 is a scary opponent, especially in 1941, but there are tools around. You should go to the editor and set a test scenario with a swarm of T-34's and then all sorts of AT equipment defending the flags. Set it so that all weapons get to try their chances.

[Joachim]

Try to get something with 5cm guns or bigger. Remember that full plts are cheaper than 4 individual tanks. IIRC you pay 20% less for all tanks but the command tank. This means you pay 3.4 tanks but get 4 plus maybe a bonus for the commander.

ISTR that recoilless rifles are pretty expensive with rarity on. Maybe drop it for something else.

A PzJg1 is able to kill T34s. It is fragile, but it might work if it gets first shots. The trick is to divert the T34. The diversion tries to catch the attention of the T34 in second 30, then comes the PzJg a few seconds later. He gets of a few shots and retreats immediately next turn if the T34 ain't finished.

And then there is hail fire. Concentrate lots of fire on one Soviet tank - it just might panic.

[Sirocco]

A sharpshooter to button the T34, two 37mm PaK's and infantry with grenade bundles would be a good core for your force in 1941. IIRC you might get hit with rarity on 50mm's and end up with nothing.

[Joachim]

Is it Axis vs Allies or GE vs SO? If Axis unlimited, has anybody ever checked it a Romanian or Italian 4.7cm ATG is available and whether its performance is comparable to th PzJgI's gun?

Gruß

Joachim

[Sergei]

The Italian 47mm (like Hungarian 40mm, with similar capabilities) is slightly better than a 37mm, but not as good as the Panzerjäger's gun.

[JamesT73J]

Originally posted by Joachim:

else.

A PzJg1 is able to kill T34s. It is fragile, but it might work if it gets first shots. The trick is to divert the T34. The diversion tries to catch the attention of the T34 in second 30, then comes the PzJg a few seconds later. He gets of a few shots and retreats immediately next turn if the T34 ain't finished.

I've found (in my admittedly limited experience) that the Russian tanks aren't great on their first shots from long distance. I suppose this might be the optics modelling.

My hassle with PAK weaponry is getting it moved around, although if there's one thing I've learnt about heavy tanks, people tend to think they're invincible and start touring the map with them, thus providing you with lots of opportunity to shoot at them.

In the meantime I have to work on the other problem of this game eating my life.

[MikeyD]

If you're likely to find yourself in a commanding defensive position the legendary 88 Flak does a pretty good job of making Swiss cheese out of those early T34s. The main drawback of the 88, though, is its not exactly mobile and it attracts a LOT of attention.

What else can you use: That obscure little 75mm recoilless rifle is in the game amazingly early. And the heavy squeeze-bore anti-tank rifle (20mm? 28mm?) has more bite than a 37mm Pak and its as stealthy as a smaller anti-tank rifle.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

With any decent cover, Pioneers will deal with anything, including KV-1's, quite nicely.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by JamesT73J:

I've found (in my admittedly limited experience) that the Russian tanks aren't great on their first shots from long distance. I suppose this might be the optics modelling.

My hassle with PAK weaponry is getting it moved around, although if there's one thing I've learnt about heavy tanks, people tend to think they're invincible and start touring the map with them, thus providing you with lots of opportunity to shoot at them.

In the meantime I have to work on the other problem of this game eating my life.

Bringing a Pak to a ME is something many players don't expect. Just ask Sergei

Just checked some guns...

500m, side shot

T34-40 T34-41 T34-41 KV1-39 KV1-40 KV1-41 KV2

(cast turret)

Italian 47mm seldom very rare very rare none none none none

Hungarian 47mm very rare very rare very rare none none none none

Hungarian 40mm seldom seldom seldom none none none none

28mmPzB very rare very rare very rare none none none none

GE 37mm ATG none none none none none none none

PzJgI OK OK OK none none none none

50L42 OK OK OK none none none none

My favourite in this test is the Hungarian 47mm. Worse than the PzJgI gun, but at 250m it starts to penetrate KV side armor ("seldom").

At 30 points (+30% rarity = 30pts) it is pretty cheap. Transport class 4 fits onto a Kübel.

PzIIIg at 84 pts (+5 Rarity) is better than the PzJgI which is penalized (base cost 56 pts) by 40% or more rarity

So I'd center my force around a vet or reg PzIIIg plt (no PzIIIh - their turret is weaker which is a severe disadvantage. Search for "Pz IV hull down". Same applies here). Add an inf Co (Recce sounds fine). I'd rather invest in an IG than in a radio for the spotter. Several ATGs (the 28mm PzB is good, the 50L60 is better, the captured 76mm is all you want, no need for 88), AT teams and 1-2 FlaK. Transport: 2-3 Kübel or 1 Kübel and a 251/1.

Gruß

Joachim

[WWB]

Historical tactics work--use MGs and arty to strip the tank of infantry protection and keep it buttoned. Then use tank hunters and infantry (those grenade bundles are nasty) to take out the offending tank.

If you have to duke it out with a T34, the early models can be penetrated in the front turret inside 250m or so by 50mm short and 37mm AT guns.

WWB

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Joachim:

Bringing a Pak to a ME is something many players don't expect. Just ask Sergei

Bah. Germans. Bah. Liars. Bah. Of course I wasn't unaware of the POSSIBILITY, as I regularly bring towed guns into play as well, and not only to meeting engagements but attacks as well. But losing a Sherman to make Andreas pull his T-34 back from killing my infantry is always a good trade. Besides, if I hadn't done that, then he wouldn't have bought those two guns, letting him use those points to buy more SMG's and Panzerschrecks.

So yeah, just ask Sergei.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by JamesT73J:

My hassle with PAK weaponry is getting it moved around

The drawback to the heavier PaK's is that on the offensive your pace is often restricted to their ability to keep up with the advance. The 37mm PaK in 1941 is a rare exception to that rule.

Their lower cost also makes them more economical to pair up, which is how you should use PaK's, of course, and they displace forward at a reasonable pace. The key to their offensive use is forward thinking.

When moving forward, scout out new positions for them, and have a schedule for their moves, on the heels of the schutzen to provide them AT support, together with HMG's and mortars. Don't leave your men exposed for too long without an effective AT screen immediately behind them.

Your tanks are in reserve behind that screen, ready to add their weight as required as the situation develops.

[86smopuim]

semi gamey way:

purchase 5-10 20mm or 37mm Flaks(not pak).

They'll take down any tank faster than you can say 'gun hit, immobillzed, abandonded' 37mm flaks also have a better blast than 81mm mortars so the really make holes in teeth vs infantry.

37mm Pak fires very fast. buy 3 and they _might_ have the luck the flak version. in ?jan? they get HC and T rounds that can knock out T-34s.

date dependant:

105 recoiless is nice when it gets HC rounds. Jan 42? i think. 150mm too. Failing a kill, the immobilze ok HC or not.

PanzerJaeger I is 'the little jaeger that coiuld'. It's 47mm gun, when armed with T rounds will kill a KV with ease(provided you have 2 or 3:1 vehicle ratio)

screw the 75mm off map arty. it just doesnt work.

stick with 81 or 105, or 120 if you can get it.

[JasonC]

37mm PAK suck. Don't take them. They only kill Russian light and you can kill those by squinting in their general direction.

The 28mm heavy AT rifle aka squeeze bore PAK is an excellent 1941 AT weapon. It can kill a T-34 through the turret front at 500m, if it gets a flat enough hit. Same for flat enough side hits. And it can cause immobilization etc. Most important, it is quite hard to spot while firing, remaining a sound contact down to a few hundred meters. Large ammo load too. But no HE ability.

37mm FLAK can also be used. More expensive and won't actually go in, but can cause damage from multiple hits while remaining just a sound contact at longer range. You do want more like 500 yards with these. They also have good HE ability, and will kill all Russian lights in seconds. 20mm FLAK is not effective - it won't cause damage often enough even when it hits the gun or track.

The 50mm PAK will kill T-34s sometimes, but tends to be spotted as soon as it fires. And it may need multiple hits to get a kill, since it has to hit particular plates, get a good "curved" armor role, get decent behind armor effect, etc. So opening up with one is always risky, and if there are several T-34s in the field of view will often get you killed. For the price, I don't think these are really worth it.

Once available, the 75mm/97 aka "French 75", the captured Russian 76mm, and the PAK 40, are all reliably T-34 killers. The French 75 is somewhat range limited vs. the improved turret models, but that is livable. All have good HE ability. The PAK 40 will kill even through the hull reliably, to long range, making it dramatically more effective (first hit usually kills). The Rumanian 75mm on map is like the French 75.

105mm howitzers can kill T-34s, and have excellent HE. They aren't the most accurate at long range - over 900m or so, where the flight time exceeds 2 seconds - and have a huge firing signature i.e. will be spotted as soon as they shoot. The HE needs a turret hit (HEAT is rare, but if available can kill even on a hull hit). The upside here is if they live, they can really work over infantry.

88mm FLAK are one shot killers, but large and immobile. I do not recommend them for MEs, generally. But they are the only real 1941 ranged KV stopper, so the threat of 1-2 of them can be valuable. A firing 88 can remain unspotted if the range is extreme - 1800m or so. These can kill early model T-34s even with HE rounds, let alone AP.

As for vehicles, the Pz Jgr I is a bad idea. The penetration is not good enough and the vehicle is highly vulnerable. Early long 75 StuGs or Marders, available in 1942, are worth buying for the extra power of the gun. But not a 47mm.

In 1941, the most effective AFV against T-34s is the Pz III H. The 50L42 will penetrate T-34 turret fronts, in perfectly aligned duels, out to 1000m for the early models and at 400-650m for later models with improved turrets. The hull armor of the H will bounce Russian 76 rounds beyond 1000m or so, if helped a bit by side angle - though partial pens are possible from flat hits.

Pz IVs and short 75L24 StuGs are dramatically less effective, needing 450m ranges against the early models and becoming completely ineffective against the improved turrets. When HEAT becomes available they can kill T-34s again, but they rarely have much ammo for it and better long 75s are out by then anyway.

The Czech 37s on the Pz38t-E and H are considerably more powerful than the Germans 37s. They can partially penetrate the front turret of the earliest T-34s models at up to 650m with guns aligned (dueling, zero side angle). And the ROF is high. At 500m the penetration chance is decent even with modest side angle.

The problem with the Czechs tends to be poor behind armor effect and limited ammo supply. HE isn't enough, some miss, some hit the wrong plate, some "roll" a high "curved" angle, so go in but only shock or get a crewman etc. The ammo supply may not last long enough to kill. Always use the "E" models to get a 50mm front yourself, as it confers immunity from Russian 45mm, including all of their light tanks.

As for infantry AT, all German infantry is decent at it, as they all get at least grenade bundles. The pioneers get demo charges for every half squad, as well as FTs, making them by far the most effective infantry AT in 1941. Tank hunters are less effective because they are more easily suppressed. All of these need short range and use from within cover to have a chance. ATRs are ineffective against anything but lights, which you can kill easily anyway.

So, the effective options when you expect to face T-34s early are -

AFVs -

Pz IIIs with 50L42 guns, preferable H model

Pz 38t E or H model

Duel hull down at ~500m, preferably 2 on 1. (Against improved turret models, 400m for the IIIs and 200m for the 38s are better ranges, though typically harder to get).

Heavy guns -

88mm FLAK

105mm Howitzer

75mm (97, 40, Rum) or 76mm PAK

50mm PAK

Open up at long range, preferably 1 at a time.

Light guns -

37mm FLAK

28mm sPzB

Open up at medium range, go silent within 400m and 200m respectively.

Infantry -

Pioneers

any squad

tank hunter

Ambush from 30m using covered arc, stationary, inside cover.

Always button them first if possible, via sharpshooter, light gun (as above), or MG fire. All can fire and give only a sound contact. It dramatically increases their reaction time for new orders and reduces their chance of spotting you rapidly in reply.

I hope this helps.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by JasonC:

37mm PAK suck. Don't take them.

When you have to take into consideration a low point total, I don't think 37mm PaK's are such a bad choice, as long as they're part of a larger plan. Integrate them with close assaulting infantry, a sharpshooter and tanks and they can perform a very valuable role with their reasonable mobility and high rate of fire when encountering heavier armour in 1941.

[JasonC]

Take a 28mm squeeze bore instead. You will be quite happy you did. 37mm PAK suck, even for the price.

[86smopuim]

agree sqeeze bore 28 is nice.

disagree 20mm flaks suck.

true 37mm flak is better, but rarity often gets in the way of purchase. 20mm x 3 together take down kvs fast.

pzj disagree again, if used proper. 3 must face *1* enemy tank. then they win. sans T rounds.. they kinda bite. very vunerable is true.

Pioneers

any squad

tank hunter

Ambush from 30m using covered arc, stationary, inside cover.

slight disagreement

pioneers 29m

squads 39m if 'nades or 'nade bundles 45m if RPG

TH 45m if pzwurfer thingy, 39m otherwise.

[JamesT73J]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm going to practice some more QB's with the advice given and see how I go.

[Denwad]

in late '42 or so Paks get those Stielgranate things, 180mm penetration. for approx. 40 points they're great tank killers, especially late war where the larger guns are koed easily by IS-II and such.

The regular AP rounds are great for dispatching scout vehicles, and Shermans.

[Panzerfest]

Was there stielgrantes for the 37mm Flak? I remember seeing it somewhere; it could have been on a Tamiya model I built years ago. Any one have any info?

[Sergei]

Yes 37mm, but not FlaK - Stielgranate is hardly useful against aircraft... They're not that great, though. You have to let the enemy tank very close, and even then you'll probably miss and get killed in a second. I consider it only as a last resort if enemy has broken through with tanks.