mortars vs. KV2, gamey or just stupid?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Hi all,

I'm playing a PBEM with a friend. It's a popular operation, but I won't name it to prevent minor spoilers. Anyhoo, it's early war, my Soviet opponent has 3 green KV2s. Although I have some early tanks and lots of infantry, I really have minimal odds of getting through that armor with even a side or rear shot. So I thought I'd harass the KV2 a little with my 50mm mortar. I figured I could at least keep him buttoned up, and if I got really lucky I might immobilize or panic him.

My partner said that this was gamey, since this tactic would never be used in the real world. (Is this true?) My opinion of the matter is that gamey behavior is something that is not only unrealistic, but confers an advantage on the perpetrator. So if my mortar does no harm to the tank, I waste ammo and draw attention to my mortar guy, but I gain no advantage. And if I am lucky enough to immobilize or freak him out, then perhaps it is an effective strategy that should not be ruled out.

However, I'm opinion to third party opinions. What do you think: is this tactic gamey, pointlessly stupid, or clever? (or some of each)

Thanks,

Dr. Rosenrosen

[eichenbaum]

50 mm mortar against a KV ?

I think it's useless... unless you have some smoke grenades...

You could better use it against infantry or AT guns.

[Jim Boggs]

Don't worry.

It is considered gamey to have and use KV's. Especially in the early years.

Unless you like seeing your tanks pop smoke and reverse a lot! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[edit]-My personal opinion is that anything is okay when dealing with a KV.

[ October 04, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Jim Boggs ]

[WWB]

Dropping indirect fire on tanks to keep them buttoned up and generally increase the anxiety level of the crew is not gamey. Easier to deal with a blind KV than a sighted KV.

WWB

[JasonC]

Mostly "pointlessly stupid" with shades of "merely desperate".

It is a waste of ammo and unlikely to do anything. If you happen to get a direct hit while a KV is unbuttoned you might KO the tank commander. Your chances of an immoblization are tiny.

Using small direct fire weapons for this, like ATRs or 20mm AA, would have a better chance of getting the gun damage or track hits you want. Because the vast majority of those shots will hit. Each hit has a low chance, but scads of them combined have a decent chance. That is a reasonable tactic.

With the 50mm mortars, only about 1/3 land close enough to hurt infantry, let alone armor. If you only need 2-3 hits and have ammo to burn that doesn't matter. But to get gun damage or track immobilization you need at least scores and probably more like hundreds of hits. And the 50mm mortars just aren't accurate enough to get them.

You'd be better off using the mortars on guns or MGs. If you want a random top hit to do something, 150mm off board artillery or larger would be the stuff to use. Or a Stuka.

"But as it happens, I don't have any 150s or Stukas". Few do. In close enough terrain, pioneers can do the job - if he obliges by coming to 30m range. But few KV drivers will do that for you, except the AI. "Nor ATRs, 20mm FLAK, 37mm PAK or FLAK, or 28mm squeeze bores". That isn't so common.

[Doghouse Reily]

Gamey, of course not!!!!!!!!!!

It's not gamey if it keeps works and keeps the

tanks buttoned up.

If you have any Arty. spotters target the KV-2(s)

with smoke and advance infantry and tank hunter units under cover of the smoke and assualt the tanks at close quaters. However, timing is

critical. I have used this tactic before and this worked (lucky doghouse that I am).

Good Luck

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Thanks for all the responses. Here's how things turned out: I had an anti-tank rifle pegging the turret and had the mortar harrassing the tank as well. Within one turn, the gun was damaged and the green crew bailed out shortly thereafter. My opponent says that he thinks the mortar is the one who damaged the gun.

Based on the replies I've seen above, I'm thinking that this was not a gamey tactic, but a legitimate form of harassment combined with some luck in that I forced the crew to bail. Any dissenting opinions?

Thanks again for all the feedback!

Dr. Rosenrosen

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Dr. Rosenrosen:

I had an anti-tank rifle pegging the turret and had the mortar harrassing the tank as well. Within one turn, the gun was damaged and the green crew bailed out shortly thereafter

Thanks again for all the feedback!

Dr. Rosenrosen

***Opens Tips on Killing KV's folder, places Dr. Rosenrosen's tip inside. Closes folder***

Nope, no dissenting opinion here.

Oh, and thank you!

[xerxes]

It was gamey to claim using mortars against tanks is gamey. Very gamey.

If you check the film closely you should be able to tell if it was the ATR or the 50mm mortar that damaged the gun.

[Abbott]

I fire ANYTHING I can at those monsters to keep them buttoned up. Firing on them with as many weapons as possible from as many directions as you can sometimes forces inexperienced (scared) crews to bail out. As Jason mentioned above anti-tank weapons of any caliber work the best but if a light mortar is all you have to button them up, I say use it as soon as possible.

[JasonC]

"If you check the film closely you should be able to tell if it was the ATR or the 50mm mortar"

My money is on the ATR. But let's hear from the source.

[ October 04, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Jim Boggs]

JasonC

I know you are right about this, but damn, it just feels better psychologically to fire the mortars, fire the MG, throw the rocks, anything!!!!

Those KV's are a biatch!!

[MeatEtr]

Originally posted by Dr. Rosenrosen:

my Soviet opponent has 3 green KV2s.

IMHO, thats gamey.....

[Snarker]

Actually, I believe someone did immobilize one of my heavies with an onboard mortar not that long ago.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Actually the 3 KV2s are part of the operation, so it's really not my opponent who is gamey for having those beasts. And since the operation is so much fun and so well balanced, I'm not going to slight the designer at all either.

Dr. Rosenrosen

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Originally posted by JasonC:

"If you check the film closely you should be able to tell if it was the ATR or the 50mm mortar"

My money is on the ATR. But let's hear from the source.

Based on my version of the movie, which doesn't give me a "gun hit" message or anything, I agree that it was the mortar. The ATR and the tank were each targeting each other, with that thick red line. The tank fires and misses. The ATR fires and the targeting line remains red for both. A few seconds later, a mortar shell explodes BEHIND the tank and the line simultaneously goes yellow for the tank, indicating that he is targeted by but no longer targeting the ATR. It seems like that's when the gun must have been damaged.

I would have bet on the ATR, too. But there it is.

Dr. Rosenrosen

[xerxes]

Your opponent could clarify. The mortar may have damaged a track and panicked the crew. Panic can cause the tank to "de-target".

[dieseltaylor]

Gamey?!

Now gamey are the two Finnish officers attacked by two Russian tanks in the Winter War , one starts to make a grenade bundle and the other one stands in front of the T28's at 40 metres shooting them with a pistol [and to stop the jokes no it was not a .44 Magnum " the most powerful" ...etc] to distract them.

After a burst of machine gun fire the officer drops to the ground ... but no he is not dead its only to re-pload the pistol ... he stands up again and starts firing ...this is is repeated three times and the tank crews are demoralised and retreat. Unfortunately just before the grenade bundle can be used...

Gamey! this board doesn't know the meaning of the word

PS If someone asks nicely I will look up their names and the date of the incident. But then I confidently expect a grog to fill this in within the hour!

[ October 05, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: dieseltaylor ]

[Grisha]

Just want to point out that it was confirmed by the US Army a decade or two ago that Soviet assessments of the effectiveness of artillery barrages upon armor were correct - and US Army assessments were not. Basically, what the Soviets stated was that artillery barrages, from either mortar or howitzer/guns, from 120mm up were very destructive to armor with near misses frequently causing disabling hits. In fact, the US Army realized in testing Soviet arty tables that modern armor was just as vulnerable as previous era armor.

So, if you have the requisite artillery in either mortar or howitzer/gun it should be a no-brainer to lay in a barrage on armor, if the situation presents itself and it is warranted. And, if I recall, CM artillery barrages can be pretty brutal to armor.

[John Kettler]

Dr. Rosenrosen,

As of the 1980s, U.S. Army manuals stated that a buttoned tank was only 50% as effective as an unbuttoned tank. It therefore seems eminently logical and appropriate to use even light mortar fire to button up the KV-2s under discussion.

OTOH, Soviet doctrine required tanks to button up before reaching the line of contact, a situation which held true at least until the 1980s (per DIA manual on Soviet tank company). Of course, CMBB does not model signal ports for flag use while buttoned, and radioless command & control works only while unbuttoned, so there's an inherent problem in the way CMBB models the behavior and capabilities of Soviet armor formations. They're forced to expose their AFV commanders in order to fight effectively, but in so doing, gain an ahistoric advantage over their real world counterparts. Nevertheless, it makes sense in both game terms and historically to button the tanks with whatever fires are available.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ October 05, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[dieseltaylor]

So you give up!

Battle of Suomussalmi between 12-16th December. Lieutenants Virkki and Huvinen. Lahti 9mm automatic.

Of course the Finns also discovered that if in your ski suit you covered your face you could run through the flames from a flame tank and disable it with grenade bundles.

[SirReal]

Bah, weak-chinned, blubbery, german-playing piss-pants, the lot of you.

Going crying home to mama over two measly KV's? Not only do you have effective weapons (88:s), you can also flank it to kill it with your tanks.

Now whatever you do, don't EVER play as the russians. You'll face Tigers. In late '42. And nothing except the easy-killed, horrendously expensive, slow-loading, can't hit a barn from the inside SU-152 can even hope to hurt a Tiger. From ANY aspect!

Oh. Wait. This isn't the MBT. Sorry about that.

/SirReal

[SirReal]

Originally posted by Grisha:

And, if I recall, CM artillery barrages can be pretty brutal to armor.

Not at all. I've heard that hunting heavy tanks with 120mm mortars was done successfully. But pounding Tigers (for example) with 120mm and up usually does nothing in CM:BB. I think it should produce a lot more immobilizations and perhaps even some gun hits, but it rarely does.

Currently, dropping heavy arty on armor is a waste of good arty in CM:BB.

/SirReal

[ October 06, 2003, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: SirReal ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by SirReal:

Currently, dropping heavy arty on armor is a waste of good arty in CM:BB.

Don't agree with that as a general statement. It depends on the density of the target. In an operation I currently play with Lindan, 122mm artillery has killed at least two tanks (one Panzer III, one Panzer IV) if I observed correctly, but more importantly stripped light-armoured accompanying vehicles and infantry off. It may also have immobilised another tank. I consider that pretty good as an effect of the 122mm barrage. It did of course help that he assembled for his assault on a TRP.

Edit to add - the Germans did not just have Tigers, so to use them as a measure of the effectiveness of artillery against tanks is not really that fair.

[ October 06, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by SirReal:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grisha:

And, if I recall, CM artillery barrages can be pretty brutal to armor.

Not at all. I've heard that hunting heavy tanks with 120mm mortars was done successfully. But pounding Tigers (for example) with 120mm and up usually does nothing in CM:BB. I think it should produce a lot more immobilizations and perhaps even some gun hits, but it rarely does.

Currently, dropping heavy arty on armor is a waste of good arty in CM:BB.

/SirReal </font>