Rob Murray Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I've got a bit a of grog question here: What's the maximum effective range for a German tank hunter team tossing grenade bundles? I know it's best range for total firepower (SMG's included ) is exactly 40 meters. I've been giving them cover armor arc orders of exactly that: 40 meters. Is this an effective range for them to toss a grenade bundle at armor? Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I'd say 28 meters is a safe bet. Oh, and have you noticed that you can chuck the bundles at infantry as well? In worst case (for your enemy) it hits like a satchel charge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 They didn't exactly 'toss' that fat grenade bundle in reality. It'd be more scamper up, place the grenade bundle, pull the pin, then scamper back. 40m I guess would be the max 'scamper without getting killed' distance . Some aspects of the game demand more imagination than others. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by MikeyD: They didn't exactly 'toss' that fat grenade bundle in reality.Oh, sure they did. Not like a hand grenade, but certainly they were thrown. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 the grenade bundle is about 30 meters (same for pioneer squad demo charges).. the little bombs are about 37 meters... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Don't confuse wartime reality and physics with the representative, abstract simulation that is the CM game engine of present day. Recall that the squad (say 10 men for the sake of argument) is not all standing on the "zero point" from which all throws originate. Assume that each squad member takes up an area one meter square, and they are seldom if ever arrayed in a "doughnut" but usually some variation on the line. Lets say 8 up and 2 back. That means we're talking about a span of 8-10 meters, somewhere in which is that darned AT bundle. It doesn't matter in CM terms who has it or where. All that matters is that it can be conveyed from A to B in time enough to credibly deliver it and escape the blast. Another poster has already noted that we could be talking of a delivery radius more than a throwing distance. We simply have to recognize that the squad itself takes up a bit more room on the battlefield than our little CM stick men do in our visual representation. Looking at all those factors makes it easier to accept that such a relatively heavy grenade bundle or satchel charge could somehow manage to be lofted 28 or 30 meters. In reality, it was being run part way and tossed part way. Until we get to the point where the engine can represent individual soldiers and individual meter square (or less) "hexes" we will have to do with imagining what is happening in our little squad "area of influence." (My hat's off to MikeyD, who managed to say the same thing with about 10 percent of the words as I.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Bonz Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Tank hunter grenade effectiveness?... ...... a relatively heavy grenade bundle or satchel charge could somehow manage to be lofted 28 or 30 meters. In reality, it was being run part way and tossed part way…… Test Proposal for tank hunter grenade effectiveness: Figure the weight of the average, WWII heavy grenade bundle or satchel charge. Fill a used back pack with similar weight stuff. ID a good tank like facsimile target… a HUMMER? Run part way and toss back pack with similar weight stuff. Repeat 10 times for an average. Adjust for extraneous factors…weather, morale, fitness, combat equipment and having a TANK possibly turning it’s turret in anger at you with associated infantry support with you as a target. Simple, no? Just joking about the Test Proposal but I would imagine it took a strong arm, luck, some distraction, suppressive fire with some major intestinal fortitude to hunt a tank on foot with a bag of grenades. My guess… 20 meters or less to get accurately close to the tank for a full KO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Here are the facts: Grenade range and special AT weapons like magnetic mines, panzerwurfmine, and RPGs are 39 meters. demo and grenade bundles have a range of 30 meters or less, but at 30 they have to be on the shorter end of 30 (like 30.5 meters or less) to throw. So, it's best to think of the range as 29 meters. [ February 07, 2004, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I know with some forward movement and a good under-arm throw I can lob my 20lb backpack about 10 meters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Denwad: I know with some forward movement and a good under-arm throw I can lob my 20lb backpack about 10 meters. After I read many members' messages about how far soldier can throw heavy object. Well, most of soldiers are in 19-25 yrs old and had been work out at boot camp even have training how to throw/place grenade/satchel in proper way to get better accrute so they are much do well than computer geek's strenght and power throw. I had see ranchhands throw bales of hays so far away even throw high as pile up and up in perfect arrangment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Bonz Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Denwad … I know with some forward movement and a good under-arm throw I can lob my 20lb backpack about 10 meters. Yeah but could you lob a 20lb backpack about 10 meters when being shot at? Actually that is not a bad toss Denwad but could you hit a moving Hummer with the backpack lob? Good to know the CM game engine parameters from Walpurgis Night. Thanks for that data. This is the kind of game engine information that helps greenhorns like myself play a stronger game. No argument with Snow Leopard’s ranch hand bale toss distances either but I would speculate these 19-25 year old studs had not been in a firefight and were not being shot at when tossing bales of hay. That said, the firefight adrenaline pumping might loft that satchel, grenade bundle a lot further than under normal boot camp circumstances. Gunnergoz …. In reality, it was being run part way and tossed part way... Don't confuse wartime reality and physics with the representative, abstract simulation that is the CM game engine of present day… Well put and glad I never had to really put a satchel charge on a slow moving tank. Those soldiers must be an exceptional lot to take on that unit task. Cheers, Robert 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 As I'm saying, of course I could, I'm 1/8th Finnish! j/k I'm not a regular computer geek, even though I'm never outside. Ok, my specs. Age: 14 Weight: 170 Height: 5' 11" Shoe size: 11 1/2 Bicep mass: Some, hovering well over pathetic though. In CM I never order my squads to follow a vehicle unless it's engaging a seperate target, stopped, and most of the infantry around it is dead/cowering/running away. 68.1.50.130 < I'm memorizing my IP. {EDIT} However, my endurance is quivalent of a Green unit on Advance up a slope. {EDIT-2} I'm pretty sure I couldn't hit anything moving. I'd rather be firing something with some more standoff than 30m [ February 06, 2004, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Denwad ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86smopuim Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 i posted this in the newbie FAQ once long ago Maybe add this incomplete infantry AT data to the FAQ How far does (insert infantry at weapon here) shoot? Ranges are the farthest seen in incomplete testing, farthest range could be more Panzerfaust 30k 40m Panzerfaust 30 40m Panzerfaust 60 58m Doesnt like to shoot at this range, for best results get under 45m Panzerfaust 100 77m Really doent like to shoot at this range, for best results get under 60m Anti Tank Magnetic Mine 29m very Effective in killing Grenade Bundle 29m very Effective in killing Panxerwerfersomething 38m German Rifle grenade 76+m readily fires, not too effective, January 45, earlier dates may be less Soviet RPG 40m Molotov 39m Ineffective Satchel Charge 29m Grenades 39m 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by 86smopuim: Molotov 39m Ineffective It's ineffective?! :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Sure is, those things are trash. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Denwad: Sure is, those things are trash. Yeah, I kinda figured as much after witnessing some half a dozen top penetrations on open vehicles , with no damage whatsoever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Maybe that videotape may give us idea how attack tank... http://www.pzg.biz/men_against_tanks_&_men_agains_men_movie.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 About throw distance, I guess that is for CM code to coded on range different than reality stuff measure by how skill and strenght of soldiers. Yeah, I agree how stress under weapon firing over your head. I wonder if WWII era's boot camps use real ammo firing over and around soldiers as they doing assult drilling? Also I wonder how soldier's mind and feel when assult tank? I wonder maybe exact feeling of hunter excite when target dangerous animal or feel excite when reel big fish in? I used work as loss pervention officer which catch shoplifters, that exact feel rush as close and catch shoplifter. I used to have feel more excite and wonder how danger person is when have to catch man who is much bigger than me. (he is football player that time I caught him) I had feel that some of you members had feel in past or now as soldiers in drill or on battlefield do something dangerous action. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaD JoKe Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Throwing molotovs, handgrenades etc. have a better chance of scoring a critical hit if thrown AFTER the tank has passed the AT-team. So if there's a chance, define those AT-sectors not in front of the squad/team but on it's side or rear area. This actually works.. I quess it simulates the infantry attacking the tank from the "blind spots" on the rearside and lobbing explosives on the deck/above the engine compartment of the tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Bonz Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Good point BaD JoKe about "of scoring a critical hit if thrown AFTER the tank has passed the AT-team" Snow Leopard, "I wonder if WWII era's boot camps use real ammo firing over and around soldiers as they doing assault drilling?" My father was in US Army Engineers WWII. One story I clearly remember was his boot camp find the booby trap in the house drill. Several people he knew lost hands, fingers when they moved to the ‘hot house’ in final training. These poor guys never saw Europe in battle. At least in his experience, everyone was a lot more attentive after these training accidents. Of course the instructors pointed out that with a full load, these injures would have been fatalities for the Engineer and others in his unit. Focused everyone on proper technique as you may only get one chance. And that ‘hot house’ (IMO) is not nearly as adrenaline pumping as running up to an angry tank with a bag of explosives with folks shooting at you! 86smopuim: Molotov 39m. I guess 39m @ 117 ft. is for game engine purposes. I have thrown a "Molotov" or reasonable facsimile (when younger and out of site of parental guidance) and no way I could hum that flaming explosive device 39m. Still impressive when it hits. BIG FIRE! * I do not endorse or recommend recreational or experimental Molotov pitching as ‘standard disclaimer’ "Misuse can cause serious injury or death." * Thanks again for the newbie AT FAQ Cheers, Robert 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboose Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I dunno about you all but i believe i could hurl a bag of explosives ~25 meters. I mean how heavy Could it be? About battle stress as close as i can get is high-school football, that is chaotic and gets you pretty pumped up to do anything. It also dulls pain and focuses you only on your job which i imagine would pretty close to being in war (course im not getting shot at ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Well, the CM engine abstracts a good many things. See how the Magnetic-mine range is 30m? giving a fire order in CM means that someone is running up to the tank and attaching a mine directly to the tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaD JoKe Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Dawg Bonz: I have thrown a "Molotov" or reasonable facsimile (when younger and out of site of parental guidance) and no way I could hum that flaming explosive device 39m. Still impressive when it hits. BIG FIRE! There is training in finnish military about making/using of contemporary at-assets, including molotovs (only against halfdead armour without tracks/turret movement etc). It's hard to hit even a stationary tank with a molotov because the object to be thrown is of weird and "uncomfortable" shape, somewhat heavy and of slippery material like glass. You also have to be careful not to break the thing when the fuse has been lit Also using the device reguires great accuracy because it didn't do any good anywhere else than above the engine compartent or "good luck" throw on a open hatch.. And you can also add the incoming fire here : But one thing that is in affect here that I dont know if has been modeled to CM.. for example, think of a invincible KV-tank in the battlefield: incoming fire of every possible caliber is hammering the armor and the crew is getting understandably edgy. Possibly some 37 mm or 50 mm gun is taking pot shots from a good hideaway position. Then suddenly, there is some smoke in the crew compartment! There is some fire, possibly outside the tank or perhaps it is allready in the engine compartment? The tank might be only fiew seconds away from brewing totally? Would you stay in the tank and hope that it's just a molotov? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Good video to watch. "Men Against Tanks". I think Belle & Blade offers it. It's a German training film for how to fight enemy armor. The Germans used captured T-34's and KV-1's to make the film. Gives you a good idea of what the soldiers in the game are doing when an enemy tank gets close. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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