splooger Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 The CM series might be good against another person, but I find it really lacking a good AI. It doesn't seem to know how to attack. I bought CM:BB hoping the AI would be improved over the first game but I was burned again Since I buy wargames for play against the computer, my CM CDs are coasters. I hope they can improve the AI in future games because I feel the games would be great if it wasn't for this flaw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoffel Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 yes,in some cases the scenarios available on the disk can be disappointing. I can advice you to have a look at the scneario depot. It has many scenarios and in most cases a lot of reviews or other remarks regarding gameplay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Yup, we always try, and will continue to do so. But until someone shows us a better non-scripted non-cheating AI capable of playing any map, force mix and setup, we're quite happy with what we got Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammenwerfer Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Attacking is very difficult for most human players. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 I have played 99% of my games vs. the AI. I'm pretty happy with what it has to offer in terms of defence for the most part. Some sort of basic scripting that could be variable would help out for the attack, though it still beats me when I give it +50% forces often enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Originally posted by Flammenwerfer: Attacking is very difficult for most human players. yeap... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rosenrosen Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 I have an explanation and a few suggestions: I agree that there are limitations to the AI, especially when it is supposed to attack. It is very difficult to program AI for strategy games. The games that have the most challenging AI are the ones with the most limiting number of strategic elements for the computer to consider. Take chess for example. Chess AI has made great advances because there are many restrictions on the player: the pieces are always the same and can move only in certain ways, there are only 64 squares to consider, each player alternates one move at a time, the setup is identical at the beginning. Since the main goal of CM is realistic recreation of historical conditions (units, weather, map types, etc.), the developers have created so many different variables that AI creation is made quite complex. The philosophy behind this approach is to give players maximum flexibility in scenario design and strategic possibilities. But unlike in chess or other simpler games, attempting to code an AI that can deal with these infinite possibilities is practically impossible. We take it for granted that our own brains can filter and deal with this much variable information and develop high level strategy around it. The science of AI needs to advance before it can be addressed better. Personally, I'm impressed with how well the AI does in many situations. "But some games have more challenging AI than CM!" you cry. In between these two extremes(chess and CM), there are many other strategy games that have decent AI. I submit that any game that has a more challenging AI is by its nature a simpler game in terms of variability of factors compared to CM. (I'm not saying that chess is a "simple" game to play and master, just that the parameters are much more limited than in CM.) CM's goal after all was to introduce as many variables that could be modelling historically. This is one of the reasons it makes such an entertaining game, especially between two humans. There have been some attempts to make CM more single-player friendly. As my PBEM buddy has gotten busier, I've started doing Biltong's Campaign Rules. It provides an entertaining framework for setting the variables in successive QBs. (There's always a BCR thread open if you want more info.) Another option is to play some scenarios that others have designed for play against the AI. Naturally many of these put the AI in the defensive position, but they still result in challenging games. When I'm in a defensive mood, I'll design a scenario with an interesting defensive position and then attempt to assault it myself, giving the AI my own defensive designs. I'm limited to more static defenses, but at least this gives me the opportunity to think both defensively and offensively and gain some variety over normal QBs. Dr. Rosenrosen [ April 07, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Rosenrosen ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 David, Try playing the Iron Man Rules, AKA Franco's True Combat Rules. Prepare to be challenged. Prepare to fight without the god's eye advantage. Prepare to lose. Down in the dirt... Toad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Phosphorus Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 I think the easiest way to make the AI dangerous on attack is to give it more armor than you can handle. Make a Kursk scenarior with massed AT riffles vs Panthers. Always give it several vehicles that are just barely penetrable from any side, Tiger Tiger as the Soviets is a good example of a challenging defensive scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Murray Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 The AI in the CM series may be lacking in some respects but it's still better than the AI in the Close Combat Series ( particularly Battle of the Bulge ) tanks will stop out in the open & just wait, rotating their turrets, to be destroyed. Now that's frustrating. [ April 07, 2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 David, 2 comments here: a. just when you are comfortable with winning, try the other side. try playing with rarity on. b. if you are using the cds as coasters, can i get it off you ? i would very much like to give it to my friends. laxx 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrNoobie Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 yes use Franco's rules, i have played three games using these rules and it can be very daunting at first but the feeling of not knowing whats behind the hill can be very nerve racking! plus theres nothing like getting lost in the woods with your troops im sticking with these rules from now on, i maybe tempted to load up CMBO again but im a mod slut and i dont want to spend half a day d/l all those great mods =/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 yeah, after you play ironman you develop a lot of respect for fog of war and the "where the hell is the enemy? where the hell am i?" effect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 There was a thread some time ago on QB's vs the AI that were challenging, just because of the time period chosen. Try Jul 41, AI as high quality armour German attacker, you as low quality Russian Infantry. Variable rarity on Italians/ Hungarians/ Rumanians defending vs AI Armour or Combined arms Russians in 1942/43 is always a laugh, as you have very little/nothing that can take a KV or T34 from the front, so need to plan for flank shots or close assault. And with rarity on, the odd 75mm or captured 76 ATG is very expensive... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Ryan Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 Iam quite new to CM seris, CMBB being the first type of war game like this i have played and i have to say i think the AI on it is brillient. So i dont know a few of you are moaning about but then it might just be me being new. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splooger Posted April 9, 2003 Author Share Posted April 9, 2003 Thanks for the thought provoking responses without flames; very civil discussion reflects well on the CM community. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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