A discrepancy...

[Gurra]

I recall all those photos of russian infantry making a run over a snowy field along with their T-34's, trying to seize that village for the 5th time. In Combat Mission you definitly never want to try that more than once. I wonder, is there glue in the snow? This atmoshperic phenomenon make all battles during winter slower than old grandma. And I´m not talking about 300 meters of running here, god damn it, maybe only 30! Little or no physical training have been exercised here. The good point with this though, is that summer warfare feels extremely flexible.

[Moon]

Watch the snow depth - in anything than light snow, going is indeed quite tough. As it should be if you ask me.

Martin

[Gurra]

I guess it´s correct. It´s just frustrating, or infuriating, to see one's attack get stuck and never recover any pace.

But, I realize I would like to hear some viewpoints from you other players on infantry management, even though I know this issue been up before in various topics. My thinking goes:

I sometimes wish that battlefront would release a CMBO infantry patch for CMBB and CMAK.

I know it´s realistic and all that when infantry squads are pinned down and refuse to behave accordingly with one's attack plans, but for the sake of gaming, I wonder if it wouldn´t be more rewarding to cope with excessive losses and scenario failure because of that, instead of having to cancel all these sneak orders and constantly having to reorganize your platoons halfway to the critical VL.

It wouldn´t be that very unrealistic if the squads could perform more actions before they´re pinned and panicked but on the other hand paying for it in KIA's. The choice would be all yours: use cover, care for your men and do it the safe way or be bold and pay the tribute. I been a friend with this game quite some time now, and it seems I can never get tired of it, but as I have come to see it, the reason why the game is just short of being the perfect wargame and not actually being it, is because it's so unrewarding when it comes to infantry management.

Am I way off here? What are you´re opinions?

[Sergei]

Those real life soldats also had the benefit of being able to follow in the trail of the T-34's so that the snow was packed tighter. And snow has more qualities than just depth. If the surface has frozen well, it can support the weight of a man without too much sinking (unless running), but other times you are forced to wade waist-deep.

[Sergei]

But what would it mean to the defender when all those Robotruppen came on with no moral hit for casualties? To me the only issue is the silly TacAI handling of routed troops (the headless chicken dance of death phenomenon). But all this is really pointless, because such changes won't be changed.

[Redwolf]

Well, CM models an actual attack for half an hour. Soldiers would not run with their rucksacks. They would have weapons and ammo and in warm weather water, that is it.

I certainly can run move fast for more than 30 meters in any snow which stops below my knees with that kind of weight. In snow you also don't have fatique from too much heat. I also wouldn't run to plain exhaustion which CM soldiers do (and fast enough that the player's actions which happen only once a minute are not frequent enough).

Add to that the additional exhaustion from automatically ordered sneaking by the TacAI and you end up with a force pace which seems below realistic.

[Joachim]

Somewhere in a recent thread there are some links about the Cholm encirclement. One of them described a relief attack by grenadiers. Their AFVs could not help as they got stuck in the snow. Arty was no help as it sunk in deep before going off. Moving was tough. And the Soviet counterattacks were repulsed by standing up and firing - kind of 18c warfare. MGs were operated by a firer, a loader and a human mount. Guess this is what deep snow means. Snow that can support men is probably depicted as light snow.

Gruß

Joachim

[ July 16, 2004, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[AC]

I want to see you run in 70cm deep snow with combat gear on Redwolf.

[Bonxa]

I made my service in northern Sweden and can attest that moving in snow is very tiring when it gets beyond 20-30 cm or so. You are either plowing your feet throught the snow or you have to lift your legs high, or both. Running is impossible when the snow gets deep enough, you'll fall over.

In CM I find the move command to be the best in snow, even under fire. Very short advances can do the trick under more intense fire. Patience is key.

And I disagree that CMs tough infantry model is unrewarding. I think it's all the more rewarding when you finally get there and capture those damned HMGs that have been harassing you the last 20 minutes.

[securityguard]

Deep snow is pretty unplayable under QB standards, unless you're attempting to make a certain type of QB or scenario. even scenarios that feature it, i can barely play it, its quite annoying. And yes its pretty realistic. trying to run through snow up to my knees is tough, i couldnt imagine any deeper

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by AC:

I want to see you run in 70cm deep snow with combat gear on Redwolf.

And which part of "which stops below my knees" was so hard to understand?

[joesnuffy]

Orignally posted by Redwolf:

In snow you also don't have fatique from too much heat.

From the book Forgotten Sodier by Guy Sajer: "Running in snow isn't easy. In less than 2 minutes one is lathered in sweat..."

I was reading someone's memoir of the Korean war. They were sent out to set up an ambush in the middle of the night in snow. After a couple of hours, everyone was shivering violently. They had to abort the ambush because the shivering was making too much noise.

My own experience in snow is that, becuase you are so heavily bundled, overheating can be a major concern. Then when you stop running, you are soaked, which chills you to the bone.

I would imagine that snowy conditions in general really affect one's stamina, stealth ability, morale, etc. CMBB's modeling of this maybe isn't fun but seems fairly realistic.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by joesnuffy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Orignally posted by Redwolf:

In snow you also don't have fatique from too much heat.

From the book Forgotten Sodier by Guy Sajer: "Running in snow isn't easy. In less than 2 minutes one is lathered in sweat..."

</font>

[Ron]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AC:

I want to see you run in 70cm deep snow with combat gear on Redwolf.

And which part of "which stops below my knees" was so hard to understand? </font>

[joesnuffy]

Originally posted by redwold...

Well, Joe, then how long can a CM soldier run in light or medium snow?

Them's fightin' words, Red. :mad:

Well, taking into account the water content of the snow in the Russian winter of 1942, factoring in wind speed, assuming early onset of dysentery... um let's see... carry the seven... divide by 6.4... um ... square root ... the answer is: light snow - kinda far; medium snow - not very far; heavy snow - going nowhere fast.

[YankeeDog]

Well, I guess it all comes down to exactly how deep "Heavy Snow" is supposed to be in CM. I've always simply accepted that "Heavy Snow" is snow deep enough to substantially inhibit movement. And left it at that.

Exactly how deep snow this would be IRL actually depends on the exact kind of snow. Fresh powder is relatively easy to move about in, even if it's knee deep -- it actually offers less resitance than a comparable depth of water. The worst is deep snow that has had a light rain fall on top, and then refrozen. This forms a light crust on top of the snow, which you break through as you walk. Moving even 10 feet in snow like that can be exhausting, and the ice crust can actually be sharp enough to shred clothing and draw blood (I speak from experience here).

I guess eventually it might be nice to have three depths of snow, rather than two: Light (no real impediment to movement), Medium (moderate impediment to movment), and Deep (movement very difficult). Right now, we kind of just get the extremes.

IRL, even in deep snow an experienced outdoorsman can find paths where the going is a bit easier. The snow is usually much shallower along a treeline because the branches are very thick there and tend to deflect the snow. In relatively open terrain, if there is a dominant wind direction features like small ridges also create bare or at least shallow areas in the snow cover (and corresponding deep drifts downwind, of course). Most of these areas of easier going are exactly where you *don't* want to be if you're in danger of being shot at, though, as they tend to be on the higher, more exposed terrain.

Another part of the whole snow issue is that CM dramatically underrepresents what can be done on skis or showshoes. This has been covered in other threads, but Skis or snowshoes give you much greater mobility in snow, and unlike in CM, it's not a problem to Fast Move (i.e., "Run"), Hide, Lie down or kneel to shoot, etc. while wearing skis. I used to play on a paintball team, and we'd frequently do winter matches in the woods after big snowfalls. Big fun, especially because I was one of the best skiiers on any of the local paintball teams, and so could ski circles around the guys trying to slog around with only boots.

Cheers,

YD

Cheers,

YD

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by joesnuffy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by redwold...

Well, Joe, then how long can a CM soldier run in light or medium snow?

Them's fightin' words, Red. :mad:

</font>

[joesnuffy]

Originally posted by redwolf...

So again, hands up, how long does it take from "OK" to "tired" (stops running) in medium snow in CMBB 1.03?

It seems that this would be easy to figure out. One could just jump into a scenario and try it. I'll see if I can do it this weekend.

[Redwolf]

You still miss my point.

The point is that people are always defending whatever is in CM without actually looking at what the game does.

Point proven.

[joesnuffy]

But you are using your opinions, as opposed to facts, to back your points as well.

I certainly can run move fast for more than 30 meters in any snow which stops below my knees with that kind of weight.

Have you tried it? A 100 yard dash in shin-level snow with a few pounds on your back? That would be tiring, at least.

In snow you also don't have fatique from too much heat.

This is your opinion, which several people have disagreed with.

I also wouldn't run to plain exhaustion which CM soldiers do.

You might if you were given a direct order so as not to disobey your superiors. Or if you were out in the open and were running towards cover, I imagine you would keep going as opposed to stopping and hiding in the open.

Add to that the additional exhaustion from automatically ordered sneaking by the TacAI and you end up with a force pace which seems below realistic.

Sneaking is low on the fatigue meter in CM.

All of this is opinion. Most of the stuff that goes back and forth here is opinion. Many issues in CM would take significant research to prove out, which the CM guys have probably done. All that we have is opinion and conjecture on many of these issues. That, by the way, is part of the fun. So what exactly have you proven?

[Redwolf]

I seem to have missed this.

I don't see how any of what you said changes the fact that people are defending the values in CM without knowing what these values actually are.

[joesnuffy]

My point simply was that you are doing the same thing that you are accusing others of doing. You were questioning the game modeling without really knowing what is realistic or not, and others were defending it. What's the difference? And besides, some things are very difficult or impossible to prove or disprove, such as the modeling of pace and fatigue when running in snow. How is anybody here going to say, "A fit rifleman can run 35m in light snow before tiring instead of 30m?" That's just not going to happen here.

Anyways, we are beating a dead horse. You made some comments. I chimed in to disagree with you, as did others. Yes, it was without facts and data to back it up, but it was based on my general feeling from what I have read, from playing the game, and from my own life experiences. You seemed to have a problem with that, and I don't understand why. Enough said on this subject.

Enjoy the weekend! :cool:

[Moon]

The manual states IIRC what the snow depth roughly means.

As for testing all of this - both Steve and (more recently) I live in rural areas with a lot of snow, so we have a bit of experience with it. I have been in the Army, too, and have had my share with snow in the German Eifel as well. The values used in CM are based on those experiences, some additional reading, and the opinions of current and ex-military personell with even more experience in this matter; as well as a great deal of testing, especially when we made CMBB.

The problem is that all of this can be wiped aside by just one person saying "But *I* can run XXX meters in XXX centimeters of snow..." and you start all over again.

Redwolf - keep in mind that the three guys you see on the game map represent a squad. Hence, the speed of advance is that for a squad of soldiers, not for one guy. When a squad goes from OK to tired, that doesn't mean that these guys fall flat on their back. But it means that the average advance speed from that moment on is slowed down.

Martin

[Sanok]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Well, I guess it all comes down to exactly how deep "Heavy Snow" is supposed to be in CM.

The manual states, that light snow is a few inches. Snow is roughly eight inches. Deep snow is twelve inches or more.