To BTS: Humble Request for CMAK terrain

[MrNoobie]

Look at the AMAZING job that modders did with CMBO to make it look like the desert in the North African theatre of operations. AND that was without ANY help from BTS at ALL!

If I understand the orignal request/suggestion correctly ALL that was asked was to leave in some terrain tiles left over from CMBO so that modders could make CMBO like maps to recreate CMBO battles.

IN THE SAME WAY AS THE MODDERS MADE SCENARIOS AND MAPS FOR NORTH AFRICA FROM CMBO

Thats ALL

*cracks knuckles* im set and ready to go!

[aka_tom_w]

ok then

that sounds positive

-tom w

[MikeyD]

CMBB left bocage hedges out of the game because bocage hedges didn't exist in Russia. Instead they used the tile for something more appropriate to the place. So why would they put bocage hedges into Sicily? Wouldn't you prefer they use those tiles for something more appropriate for the Sicilian campaign?

If you want to turn CMAK into a CMBO expansion pack why stop there? Why not demand they include post-war armor so you could construct battles between Qadaffi's Lybia and Sadat's Egypt?

[ April 15, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[kipanderson]

Hi,

MikeyD posted,

“CMMB left bocage hedges out of the game because bocage hedges didn't exist in Russia. Instead they used the tile for something more appropriate to the place. So why would they put bocage hedges into Sicily? Wouldn't you prefer they use those tiles for something more appropriate for the Sicilian campaign?

If you want to turn CMAK into a CMBO expansion pack why stop there? Why not demand they include post-war armor so you could construct battles between Qadaffi's Lybia and Sadat's Egypt?”

Yup, there is no doubt about it, MikeyD and I are on the same wave length. It was always going to be the case that once BFC moved to the third game in the series the subject matter would not be the “first choice” of a large number of people, if you follow me.

With the first game set in North West Europe, and the second on the Eastern Front, BFC could not go wrong; both subjects would be welcomed by 90% of wargame fans. The two subjects would make it into the top three choices of 90% of wargame fans. However, the third CM game was always likely to be a subject that was a little more niche market. The first game in with the new engine may also have a slightly more niche market subject, I do not know. Every game cannot be NWE or Eastern Front. I am sure they will return to NWE with the new engine eventually.

Until then I think we all have to learn to live with the odd game that is not our first choice. In my case the Eastern Front, NWE and modern war/Cold War would be my first choices for subjects. But I am more then happy with the Med. For all I know the first game with the new engine may be Early War, which really is not on my list at all.

In my view, all the graphics that ship with the game should be Med graphics.

All the best,

Kip.

[MikeyD]

For a large segment of wargamers and historians the Western Desert is THE PLACE, and they've been very disappointed BFC hasn't given them what they want yet. CMAK will be for them.

I've heard one dedicated desert warrior complain that CMAK is going to 'pollute' a perfectly nice desert wargame by stooping to include Italy!

With CMBO I learned to love post-D-Day Western Europe. With CMBB I learned to love the eastern front. When CMAK comes out I fully expect to learn to love the Mediterranean theatre of operations (or maybe to hate my old computer processor if it refuses to run the game).

[ April 15, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Holman]

If you want to turn CMAK into a CMBO expansion pack why stop there? Why not demand they include post-war armor so you could construct battles between Qadaffi's Lybia and Sadat's Egypt?

That's a slippery-slope argument that we can disregard.

No one is suggesting that we turn CMAK into a CMBO expansion pack. I *love* the fact that we're getting the Med, and I plan to play all of the Med scenarios I can. But the fact is that the OOBs and equipment that are already coming with CMAK will leave us just inches away from a very realistic and (depending upon the scenario designer, as always) historically correct means of doing "beyond Overlord" under the new engine. Why should we turn our backs on this?

The request to BTS is a limited one: please allow winter weather and ground conditions to remain in CMAK, and please include bocage as well so that we can do France properly. That's it. Since winter conditions may already be planned for CMAK because of the Italian theater, the request really just comes down to bocage. (If people want scenarios that take place in German-looking rather than Italian-looking villages, the modders will accomodate them anyway. BTS need not spend time on adding a whole new theater's worth of terrain graphics to CMAK.)

Someone mentioned that bocage would necessitate leaving out some other, Med-appropriate terrain tile. This is almost certainly not true: is there a hard-coded limit to the number of terrain types possible in the CM engine, and would the addition of bocage cross that limit?

What people fear about "turning CMAK into a CMBO expansion pack" is that it would mean downplaying the Med, spending time making NW Europe Scenarios, and generally delaying development time. No one wants that--certainly not me! But this is not what people are asking for.

All we want is the option of using what's already in the CMBB engine to make northern battles using the Allied data that will come with CMAK. This could only be considered unrealistic (and thus a perversion of the CM ethos) if tank behavior, squad compositions, and other carefully-modelled factors were different between the Italian front and the NW front. But isn't a Sherman Jumbo a Sherman Jumbo whether in Rome or Caen? Are OOBs so different that careful scenario designers couldn't replicate the distinctions?

There almost seems to be a defensiveness about the Med being overshadowed by NW Europe in the next game. I can appreciate this: the Med is lesser known and less sexy than D-Day and after, at least to the American market. But the theme, marketing, and scenarios included in CMAK will all emphasize the Med, so there's no danger of it being overshadowed.

And the fact is that people are going to take those CMAK GIs, Shermans, Tigers and SS troops and make Europe scenarios *anyway.* This is natural: those of us who love CMBO are dying to play those battles with all the enhancements of the CMBB/AK. But no one will force Med purists to play them. We'll consider the enhanced European possibilities of CMAK as a bonus, an easter egg. And we'll be grateful!

It just comes down to this:

1) Please keep winter in CMAK.

2) Please include bocage in the CMAK editor.

That's it. No new units, no unique northern green terrain set, no special ambient sounds for Falaise as opposed to Tunis, no V-2 rockets, no Qaddafi.

Believe me, we will be grateful.

[flamingknives]

Why does everyone assume that there will be no winter settings for CMAK?

Allied forces were in Italy for 2 winters and Italy has some decent sized hills (mountains, whatever).

Winter is to be expected, methinks

[MikeyD]

We probably won't get much by way of winter between 40 and 43 of course... Unless you think the British defeat in Norway was part of the Med. theatre of operations!

[moneymaxx]

I have to admit that I’m surprised that this thread evolved into such a heated debate. I think one should look at the original request:

a) a winter option

a bocage tile

The original argumentation was that NO additional units tanks or whatever are needed because they are already in the OOB of the Med. theatre. So I agree with all of those who say that there shouldn’t be units which were not used in the Med. in CMAK and that BFC should concentrate only on the Med. during their research/game design.

BTW, special textures for houses churches woods etc. are not needed because the mod community will sure be delighted to provide those. So there is no danger that French churches pop up in Italy. But winter with snow in northern Italy, unlike a French church, is very common, so I guess that the winter option isn’t a problem at all, since it, with a high probability, will be included.

I understand that one doesn’t want a bocage tile in a computer generated map or that the bocage tile takes the place of another terrain tile. This has to be clarified by BFC since they program CMAK .

Anyway, after thinking about it I came to the conclusion that the value of a bocage tile for generating a map CMBO-style is more limited than one would expect. It sure would look authentic, but I don’t think that the CMAK unit data will include the information if a tank has a hedge cutter or not. This makes the bocage useless in many potential scenarios because this was a major difference in CMBO between AXIS and ALLIED tanks, resulting in totally different tactics since bocage prevented Axis armor to enter certain areas.

[ April 15, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: moneymaxx ]

[PeterX]

Attention all Grogs; we know you're out there lurking. It might be helpful if someone could supply a list of units that the Med/Italian and NW Europe theaters don't share. There are Pershings. What else? What about Luftwaffe infantry formations, for example?

And any terrain besides bocage that is exclusively identified with Western Europe?

[MrNoobie]

okay i have to ask whats OOB. as for the topic, frankly i dont care what units will be in there. it would be nice to see the Brits and the Americans on some tall grass graphics! im all about the eye candy dont care bout armor slope or what ammo type were used. i have plenty of fun playing these games the thing that i was bothered by CMBO was that if you have a crack tiger tank the computer usually takes your tank out with one shot which i found very annoying =/ cant wait for CMAK

[Firefly]

Originally posted by PeterX:

And any terrain besides bocage that is exclusively identified with Western Europe?

Bocage is limited to part of Normandy, which was probably one of the reasons that it never occurred in QBs in CMBO, even in Normandy the eastern part of the area consists more of open fields. Despite what most people think, the Mediterranean does have winters, although in North Africa they tend to be cold and wet rather than snowy. The occasional winter snowfall in North Africa probably doesn't justify its inclusion in that theatre, but Italy probably has more snow than NW Europe - the majority of the country consists of hills and mountains.

[CombinedArms]

I'm not sure how much is left to debate. It looks to me like Italy=winter weather, of necessity. So it comes down to a bocage tile, and frankly, I think we can do very well either with or without it, for these reasons (mostly already cited above):

1. Bocage wasn't very well modeled in CMBO anyway. Troops tended to blunder into it and get stuck. Its value to the defender seemed limited. The American hedge-cutter Shermans were overmodeled (at best, a small percentage of American tanks had them, and no Brits. They created permanent holes, not temporary breeches.) Etc. I don't think we can expect a vastly improved bocage environment in CMAK--and the old one will seem even more problematic in the more realistic CMBB/AK environment than it did in CMBO.

2. It only applies to a limited area and time frame. Most of the battles I want to refight are not primarily in the Normandy area, anyway.

3. You can use other tiles to substitute for bocage if necessary. I played one scenario where lines of woods were used instead of bocage to avoid giving some French tanks an ahistorical advantage, and it didn't look too bad and worked fine.

So, if BFC wants to include bocage tiles that's fine with me, but if they don't, it won't stop me from replaying plenty of BO area battles in CMAK.

[ April 16, 2003, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[MikeyD]

That's a thought. The Culin Hedgecutters wouldn't be modeled for Italy so bocage would make an impenetrable obstruction for both sides.

Sounds like if bocage comes into CMAK I could simply mod it into that tall stone wall I wanted!

[aka_tom_w]

has there been any "official" comment on this issue/thread? :confused: :confused:

curious

I would REALLY like to play CMBO battles in the ETO in CMAK!!

who else here feels that way???

-tom w

[Soddball]

You guys make it sound as though there isn't any rain, snow or mud in North Africa! A book I've been reading about the Tunisian campaign talks about knee-deep mud, heavy rains and snow-capped mountains.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

has there been any "official" comment on this issue/thread? :confused: :confused:

curious

I would REALLY like to play CMBO battles in the ETO in CMAK!!

who else here feels that way???

-tom w

Pretty much all the elements we'll need to play CMBO battles will be there, so I'm not sure BFC needs to take an "official" position--and that might be an awkward thing for them to do.... Offically, the theatres are Africa, Italy and Crete, but in CMBO we had modded, unofficial versions of the Desert War and the Pacific War, as well as an elaborate Normandy beach mod that was breathtakingly beautiful and effective, so why not an unofficial ETO for CMAK? The modding required for ETO battles will be far more modest than for some of the CMBO mods, and the ingenuity of CM players/designers seems to know no bounds.

My expectations:

1. There won't be any "North of Italy" scenarios on the CD. We'll have to make them ourselves. No problem there.

2. Terrain will probably "look" Italian--that can be modded to fit northern France or Germany if that's important to you.

3. For historical reasons, rarity cost values may be different in Italy as compared to ETO, especially for certain vehicle types. But this only applies to QBs, and if you're fighting a QB, you're not really re-fighting historical ETO battles anyway--you're in QB land. Mods can get you the right look, if you want to FEEL like you're in the ETO. And you can always turn rarity off if it poses problems to getting a characteristic ETO force mix and rely on player agreements instead.

[ April 21, 2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[fabs]

I tend to agree with the folks that argue that it would not be too much work to include a "bocage" like feature in the new game.

In Italy, some battlefields contained features such as terraced fields located on hillsides where the levels were separated by tall, ancient stone walls that represented equally problematic obstacles to vehicle movements.

Assuming that one can take care of the one difference they had vs hedgerows (the fact that they only occured on points where there was an elevation change)by using the elevation system, this feature could serve as a "dual purpose" slot where modders could insert "bocage" for BO scenarios developped with this new engines, which would need different style buildings, bridges, trees, tree-bases, fields, grass and brush etc. anyway.

My main beefs against "bocage" as it is modelled within CMBO are of a different nature.

Graphically, "bocage" hedges look totally differe3nt from how they have been represented. The most glaring omission is the trees that were included in every hedgerow in Normandy. This forces the representation to show the hedges around "tall pine" roads, leaving a few gaps with "scattered trees" to allow for crossing points. The result looks OK from a distance, but very unrealistic in "1" zoom level close up.

As for the mechanics, the techniques perfected by the Americans to cope with hedgerows consisted mainly of armor co-operating with engineers to blow gaps in the hedgerows for the tanks to pass through. The "Cullin" device was an alternative method, but by no means the universal one adopted.

The game completely fails to simulate the blowing of gaps in the hedgerows. It makes it far too difficult for infantry to cross a hedgerow, and does not correctly reflect the cover value of these obstacles to units sheltering behind them from fire, as well as its concealment potentials.

It is to be hoped that in the new engine that is being developped these aspects will be taken into consideration.

[fabs]

As for Winter and CMAK, any representation of Italian or Balkan winter fighting would need ample mud and snow.

One more interesting feature that people may be missing is the almost total absence of Waffen SS units from the hotspots of Mediterranean combat. No W-SS unit fought in North Africa or Sicily, and although some main W-SS armored formations were stationed in Northern Italy briefly after the Italian Armistice, before being despatched to other fronts and eventually to France, none took part in the main battles in this theater.

A notable exception is the Yugoslav and Greek campaign in the spring of 1941, which from what I gather will not be represented in any way. W-SS units remained active in Yugoslavia throughout ther german occupation of that country.

Are we to deduce that there will be no W-SS in CMAK as a result of this?

[MikeyD]

As to the probability of no Northern (Gothic Line) Italian scenarios on the CD, I think it all depends on if they do anything fancy with bunker/pillboxes. If the game gets a Panther turret bunker then it's gonna be fun in the Italian foothills.

The Allies didn't actually make it to the Alps before capitulation, did they?

---

Hey, good catch on no SS in Libya. Will significantly reduce the complaints about CM being 'sanitized'. Or maybe it'll increase them if the SS is totally absent.

[ April 23, 2003, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Jack Carr]

To me, including the bocage terrain from CMBO would really be nothing but eye candy anyway. The bocage terrain in CMBO didn't really provide the obstacle in the game that it really was anyway. The terrain that BTS/BFC provides in CMAK should be enough to re-create any West front battle you want, if that is what you want to do. The sticking point for those folks who want to re-create West Front battles won't be, "will there be that neat looking bocage" but "will the vehicles that we had in CMBO be in CMAK as well".

MikeyD - Point well taken about North Africa fans. There are those enthusiasts out there that are interested in the African Desert campaign and adding Italy is like watering down their long awaited prize. For these people I hope that the desert aspect of CMAK is great. It certainly looks like it will be from the screen shots!