Nobody play russians??.........

[gorgias]

Before nothing Greetings to everybody...

I am playing to CMBB time ago and i think it´s a great game (the best wargame i´ve played) but.....

I began playing germans (as usual) but a lot of time after that i saw in one hand or i was really a GOOD player or in another one the "enemy" was very crap.... I´ve not lost any game yet (playing with germnas) and sometimes (playing quickbattles usually) almost i had no casualties...

Well in this point i thought to take russians to verify my first impression and..... efectively except in the 41 (year) i think the russians are very VERY understimated. Really their units are the worst in almost every thing. Low penetration, low rate of fire and accuracy, poor command and reaction time....... "bad" armor (yes it's not a joke ;D) because the better german penetration (comparing to russians) do the russian armor worse than the teorically thinner german one. And finally worse spot capacity (optics arent the russian strong i see.... ).

Now somebody can think well but real it was so. The russian unit were "looser" comparing to germans but maybe for that they must be a lot of cheaper too and it is so.....???? NO in fact the russian tanks are "more expensive" than germans too. Really they have a very similar price but the germans are pretty good units for that valour and russians in anyway. I.e. u can say to me well the T-34 m43 (late) it´s a good tank and very cheap too..... are u sure??? U can get the german StuG a lot of cheap too and it´s worse than russian T-34?? How i see the german StuG is more challenging unit for the russians (a lot of more) than the T-34 for germans. In the most of times 3 StuG win the game to 3 T-34s or more. I´ve seen this one a lot of times...

Obviously the russians won the war "ergo" something is mistaken...

I would like to know ur opinion if somebody play russians frecuently please tell what u think about this point...

See u

SORRY for my poor english

[Kirill S.]

Russian Side: COMPLETELY different tactics

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Kirill S.:

Russian Side: COMPLETELY different tactics

I disagree, though there are some advantages and disadvantages depending on the year, i go about completing the objectives with what i have to work with and the amount of time i have to do it in, being the German, or the Russian it makes little difference to me.

[ March 13, 2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Gaylord Focker ]

[laxx]

interesting comments, i think it is not accurate to compare tactical attributes(like armor, penetration, price, morale etc) to the outcome of the war.

case in point, russia simply had more resources than germany, they sustained about 20m losses of life and still managed to come out tops. germany has better quality in the early part of the war but in the war of attrition, the last man standing wins.

btw, i play germans too coz i am familiar with the make up of the forces. And I tend to win with a little luck.

I think different tactics is required for Russian assets, eg. the IS-2 has low Rate of Fire, hence I will use it en mass and not as a lone "sniper". Have not played the T-34 enuff to comment but they are quite fast with good ROF.

[gorgias]

EXACTLY we have arrived where i want... I thought the same: "Different tactics"

So i look for information about this theme. Conclussion: "The only tactic essencially different beetween germans and russians was that the russians attack in mass looking for outnumber drastically to germans" and now i think this "it´s possible to reflect this in the game when the units valour is very similar in both armies??"

OK..OK... I know u can say dont be stupid set ur battles with double points for russians than germans...... and yes u are true but i dont like do this... i see it like a "cheat" sincerely

I would like the game was more "realistic" in this point and i havent to "correct" this.

By the way What would happen with the PBEM and ONLINE games ? Would u agree to play a ME with a human player where the russians had the double or triple points to purchase that u?

[Gaylord Focker]

The Soviets did not outnumber the Axis in every battle at the tactical level just because they had an over all numerical superiority.

[Dave H]

I've played the Russians in roughly 2/3 of the PBEMs that I've had. If you simply line up your tanks and start blazing away at the Germans at 1,500 meters, you will probably lose. If you use the terrain to get close and find good flanking shots, the German armor is in trouble.

You didn't mention infantry, but the Russian infantry will hold its own with the Germans, if you take care of your men, keep them in command, and don't expect them to be superhuman.

[mike the wino2]

Well said Dave H any more specific tactical hints on the use of Ruskies? Mainly what your force comp is in our present PBEM?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Grisha]

The Soviets defeated the Germans at the operational level. The Soviets at the tactical level had a degree of competency that at best was a rough parity to the Germans, and this only from about the third period of the war (1944, on). CMBB will never truly show us how the Soviets beat the Germans, because the tactical level was too removed from affecting the strategic outcome of the war. This is why the Soviets placed so much importance on operations - to the point of defining and studying an intermediary level they called operational art. Thus, tactics were given due study, but the Soviets firmly believed modern war and the huge armies that were involved required a focal point in military art that was beyond tactics. If you really want to depict how the Soviets defeated the Germans here, you're going to have to make a very unbalanced scenario in the Soviet's favor. Operational art had the effect of making for very favorable tactical scenarios, situations most people here wouldn't even touch as a German player.

[AUSSIEJEFF]

Hot Tip!!

I'm currently playing a PBEM against OGSF in which he is defending an exit line with numerous Uber Tigers and Panthers Vg's.

I am trying to break through with massed T-34/85's and IS-2's. If this game was at long range as others have pointed out, I would have been dead meat by turn 5. The big leveller here is the weather. Fog is resticting LOS to 85 metres. Let me asure you that at that range, his German Uber armour is being reduced to smoking hulks in quicktime.

He has lost 13 Tigers and Panthers to my loss of "only" 5 T-34's and 1 IS-2, and I'd say he is probably spitting chips based on the usual clear weather, longer range expected outcome!!

I'm happily surprised at the Russian potency at short range. Even in two on two or one on one duels. Maybe I just got lucky!

AJ

[Fionn]

With the SOviets or Germans a player who uses GOOD, BASIC, COHERENT tactics will win. The ONLY modifications required are those based on the technical-tactical characteristics of the units involved.

It all comes down to using the wepaons provided in the best way possible.. FWIW I play almost exclusively the Soviets.

[flamingknives]

The difference is all in the terrain/environment.

If you try fighting T34s in fog and poor ground conditions with Stugs, or a soviet SMG company in a city, you'll find that the Soviets can be well 'ard.

[Panzer76]

I always let my opponent choose side, and they mostly choose the Axis side. Doesnt bother me much, I tend to win, just the same.

As Dave said, ppl learn some tactics from playing axis, and then when they try the same with the russians side, it fails and they think it's cos the soviet side is worse than the axis.

I would rather command the soviet side than the axis side. Why? Cos you get more armour points and you get more units (cheaper).

One BIG advantage the soviet side has, is mobility. The russians AFVs (esp T34) is FAST. This is *crucial* when coming up against german Stugs, which is the most likely german AFV. You have to outflank them. And really, when you got 6 T34s agaianst the german 3 Stugs, with "normal" terrain (mod trees), this shouldnt be a problem more often than not.

Also, force the german Stugs to come to you. How? Well, there is only so much ground the Stugs can cover. Find some nice spots which they dont cover and where you got good los to VPs, his forces etc. Then he got to choiches, either move his Stugs towards your T34s (and dont place all the T34s at one place!) or stand and watch you blast away at his inf. When he moves, it's killing time.

[Ex Bellator]

Also FWIW we are currently running a PBEM QB tourney of 8 games in 8/42. To date all four of the games concluded have been won by the Russian side, and the Russians seem to be ahead in the other four. Therfore based on those results I could argue that in CMBB the Russians are overmodeled, not underestimated

[Redwolf]

There have been a gazillion of threads about the Russian advantages.

Keywords: shock, detachments, less problems with difficult terrain. If you are capable of good long-term planning of your artillery you'll get a significant cost advantage. Some of the planes are pretty cool, especially if you anticipate that your opponent rools in with thin armor (which he is often forced to). I didn't count but I think I won more games as the Russians.

[MikeyD]

Also as Russians don't forget the advantage in artillery, especially late war. If you're the attacker against a clearly defined objective you can let your heavy artillery do a lot of work for you in the opening barrage. Artillery's substantially LESS effective if your opponent positions his troops imaginatively, though. I remember one game the Russan AI started the game with a heavy rocket bombardment the obliterated the town they were assaulting! Luckily for me, I had chosen to set up my forced in trenches on the far side of town so I got off unscathed.

[Dave H]

Originally posted by mike the wino:

Well said Dave H any more specific tactical hints on the use of Ruskies? Mainly what your force comp is in our present PBEM?

Any help would be appreciated.

The briefing said something about either two squads or two divisions, I'm can't remember which. I guess we'll find out!

[xerxes]

The soviets win just as many games as the germans in CMBB. Armor tactics for the Soviets emphasize mobility, closing and flanking. Infantry tactics are the same for Germans and Soviets (in CMBB). Each side has it's advantages and disadvantages at every time period in the war.

[Fionn]

" Armor tactics for the Soviets emphasize mobility, closing and flanking."

Umm, shouldn't all armour tactics emphasise those? And FWIW I'd disagree that the Germans shouldn't close... Shock effect and maximal killing power is generated at close range. I habitually take Panthers, Tigers etc into knife fights at 50 to 200 metres.

[xerxes]

No, all armor is not good at close range. A nashorn engaging at 200m loses it's advantages and maximizes it's weaknesses. A fast turret, fast moving afv is quite effective in close. A slow turret, heavy frontal armor, excellent optics tank is better suited to engaging at range. But you already knew all this.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by gorgias:

Obviously the russians won the war "ergo" something is mistaken...

That would be your game experience with 'tactical combat' as opposed to actually fighting a war, and what my extremely annoying Economics Prof used to call 'not being able to deduce from the Microcosm the behaviour of the Macrocosm'.

Except that he never could get over it, of course. Sodding Economics Professors always thought you could posit reality from it's behaviour in a fish tank.

Nothing is mistaken about the difference between 'tactical' combat, and winning a war.

America whipped the Germans like a whimpering pup, and it wasn't simply on the basis of material, tactical, nor even operational superiourity.

In some cases, it's simply, as Wellington put it, 'who can pound longest'.

In other cases, it's a matter of doctrine, ability, and training.

If you're uncertain about it all, witness the fact that the Peng Challenge Thread has existed for far longer than any Grog discussion of tactics, equipment, or doctrine.

There are many occasions where simple bloody-mindedness will prevail.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Fionn:

With the SOviets or Germans a player who uses GOOD, BASIC, COHERENT tactics will win. The ONLY modifications required are those based on the technical-tactical characteristics of the units involved.

Stop playing to the crowd, Fionn.

Eveyone knows that you hate me.

Oh, and not to overlook the point of the Spaniard, or whatever he is, I almost invariably play Soviets, because all the little boys want to be Germans.

[ March 15, 2003, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Seanachai ]

[Dave H]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

Stop playing to the crowd, Fionn.

Eveyone knows that you hate me.

I know it's a terrible error in judgement for a mere mortal to intrude when the gods are thundering, but I'll butt in anyway.

Isn't it true that during 2002 you accumulated actual, written, documented proof that a lot of people on this forum truly hate you? And although many fine members actually paid for the opportunity to tell you of their hate, haven't you always assumed that EVERY person who ever posted on this forum also hates you?

So what's the big deal? :confused:

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Dave H:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seanachai:

Stop playing to the crowd, Fionn.

Eveyone knows that you hate me.

I know it's a terrible error in judgement for a mere mortal to intrude when the gods are thundering, but I'll butt in anyway.

Isn't it true that during 2002 you accumulated actual, written, documented proof that a lot of people on this forum truly hate you? And although many fine members actually paid for the opportunity to tell you of their hate, haven't you always assumed that EVERY person who ever posted on this forum also hates you?

So what's the big deal? :confused: </font>

[Skolman]

I would say the reason why russians loose that often are the scenarios provided with the game.

Maybe they are historicaly correct but many of them are terrible hard to win...especally for the russians. (Jägermeister,Totenkopf...)

Anyway i prefer to play the russians too because it´s more challenging.....and if you get frustrated enjoy a battle against rumanian forces in late 41 .(hehe)

Oi ! Skolman