gorgias

Continue playing CMBO. BB is too bored after two weeks playing it. No challenge if u play vs AI. It´s very very easy to win if u get the germans. Only a thing is interesting. If u play with germans in 41 or early 42 the game is more or less balanced, after this only need 1 or 2 heavy germans tanks and u´ll win almost ever any scenary. Excuse me CMBB fans hehe but it´s my sincere opinion.

KV-85 equal to tiger!!??? Maybe in some pretty dream...... The best russian tank is IS1..... it´s "like" a T34/85 but with better armor. It can fight front to front to the german STUg and PzIV. The T34 will die if it´s 76 mm and lose the half of times if it´s 85 mm

Richard i agree with u. Really u can win any battle playing with russians. U play vs the IA and a human player always get the way to overpass the problems and success althought he has worse units. Really the the "misvaloured" soviets are seen when u play with germans no soviets. So u can see absolutely ridiculous battles as i play a lot of times to enjoy I.e. i take 1 or 2 tigers 1 Plt of jaegers and i play a ME vs 20 T34s and 1 or 2 soviets inf. companys..... result i win the 90% of times and when i draw is for my "cats" runout its ammnution..... well this is "real"? If the germans could have to do this in real war now everybody would speak german....

Jason look at i found looking for information about STUg. "Instruction on fighting German tank T-VI. Signed by Artillery Marshal Voronov 20 April 1943 In the recent battles Germans used their new heavy tank T-VI (see Pic.1) named Tiger (Elefant, Henschel). Remark: all German heavies seem to be mixed up. However, on the pictures below scanned from the instruction accurately depict early Tiger. These tanks cover action of medium tanks, at the same time, acting themselves under the cover of medium tanks. As a rule, they do not come forward. Very often tanks T-VI open fire from distances 1.5-2.5 km. They retreat (reverse) from under the fire of our artillery. Dimensions of T-VI. Length - 6220 mm Width - 3600 mm Height - 2940 mm Armament: one 88-mm anti-aircraft gun and two submachine guns 7.92-mm. The front part of T-Vi is reliably penetrated by anti-armor shells of 45-mm guns model 1942 and 57-mm and 76-mm of all models from distances 100-700 m, by armor-piercing shells of 122-mm guns model 1931, 152-mm gun-howitzers model 1937 from 700-1000 m. Sides, rear part and turret additionally to that are penetrated by subcaliber shells of 45-mm gun from 200-500 m, by armor-piercing shells of 57-mm AT guns, 76-mm and 85-mm antiaircraft guns from 1000 m. Commanders of gun crews and gunners must carefully study and know vulnerable places of the tank, as well as which shell of which gun from what distance kills the tank. Suspension, base of turret and gun are the most vulnerable places. A hit of any shell from any gun in suspension stops the tank. The best is firing from angles 0-30 as in this case a few wheels are damaged and track is broken. A hit in the base of turret blocks it and prevents rotation of the turret in the desired direction, The tank has to turn and expose to the fire its most vulnerable places. A hit in the gun forces the tank to disengage from the battle. Damaged tank that retained its armament and some fighting ability must be rendered useless by fire at its gun and turret. Remark: it shows respect to Tiger as the instruction demands to shoot at Tiger until it has only wheels left. A gun must pick up target among attacking tanks with the consideration of best shooting angles 0-30 , that is, the target must be to the side of the gun. Guns of all types fire the standard shells only at suspension, turret's base and gun. By subcaliber and armor-piercing shells the fire is effected from: 45-mm gun model 1937 suspension, turret's base and gun - by armor-piercing shells; from 200 m at sides, rear and turret - by subcaliber shell; 45-mm gun model 1942 suspension, turret's base and gun - by armor-piercing shells; from 500 m at sides and turret - by sun-caliber shell; from 100 m at front part. 57-mm gun from 600 m at sides, rear and turret - by armor-piercing shells; from 500 m at front part by sub-caliber shells. 76-mm gun model 1942 at suspension, turret and gun; from 700 m at sides, rear, turret - by sub-caliber shells; from 100 m at front part. 76-mm AA gun from 500 m at sides, rear and turret - by armor-piercing shells; from 700 m at the front part by sub-caliber part. 85-mm AA gun from 1000 m at sides, rear and turret. 122-mm model 1931 from 1000 m by armor-piercing shell at the front part. Rear, sides and turret can be hit from 1500 m. 152-mm gun-howitzer model 1937 from 1000 m by armor-piercing shell at sides, rear and turret. Front part can be hit from 500 m. Commanders of gun crews and gunners must allow tank to close up, as close as possible, and open fire from distances securing reliable destruction." What do u think?? Is it credible?? Really it´s more i waited. 45 mm guns killing tigers??!!! WOW!! as in CMBB!!!!!

Well, well, well..... Look at what i found when i look for reports about the "StuG Invulnerability". --------------------------------------------------Instruction on fighting German tank T-VI. Signed by Artillery Marshal Voronov 20 April 1943 In the recent battles Germans used their new heavy tank T-VI (see Pic.1) named Tiger (Elefant, Henschel). Remark: all German heavies seem to be mixed up. However, on the pictures below scanned from the instruction accurately depict early Tiger. These tanks cover action of medium tanks, at the same time, acting themselves under the cover of medium tanks. As a rule, they do not come forward. Very often tanks T-VI open fire from distances 1.5-2.5 km. They retreat (reverse) from under the fire of our artillery. Dimensions of T-VI. Length - 6220 mm Width - 3600 mm Height - 2940 mm Armament: one 88-mm anti-aircraft gun and two submachine guns 7.92-mm. The front part of T-VI is reliably penetrated by anti-armor shells of 45-mm guns model 1942 and 57-mm and 76-mm of all models from distances 100-700 m, by armor-piercing shells of 122-mm guns model 1931, 152-mm gun-howitzers model 1937 from 700-1000 m. Sides, rear part and turret additionally to that are penetrated by subcaliber shells of 45-mm gun from 200-500 m, by armor-piercing shells of 57-mm AT guns, 76-mm and 85-mm antiaircraft guns from 1000 m. Commanders of gun crews and gunners must carefully study and know vulnerable places of the tank, as well as which shell of which gun from what distance kills the tank. Suspension, base of turret and gun are the most vulnerable places. A hit of any shell from any gun in suspension stops the tank. The best is firing from angles 0-30 as in this case a few wheels are damaged and track is broken. A hit in the base of turret blocks it and prevents rotation of the turret in the desired direction, The tank has to turn and expose to the fire its most vulnerable places. A hit in the gun forces the tank to disengage from the battle. Damaged tank that retained its armament and some fighting ability must be rendered useless by fire at its gun and turret. Remark: it shows respect to Tiger as the instruction demands to shoot at Tiger until it has only wheels left. A gun must pick up target among attacking tanks with the consideration of best shooting angles 0-30 , that is, the target must be to the side of the gun. Guns of all types fire the standard shells only at suspension, turret's base and gun. By subcaliber and armor-piercing shells the fire is effected from: 45-mm gun model 1937 suspension, turret's base and gun - by armor-piercing shells; from 200 m at sides, rear and turret - by subcaliber shell; 45-mm gun model 1942 suspension, turret's base and gun - by armor-piercing shells; from 500 m at sides and turret - by sun-caliber shell; from 100 m at front part. 57-mm gun from 600 m at sides, rear and turret - by armor-piercing shells; from 500 m at front part by sub-caliber shells. 76-mm gun model 1942 at suspension, turret and gun; from 700 m at sides, rear, turret - by sub-caliber shells; from 100 m at front part. 76-mm AA gun from 500 m at sides, rear and turret - by armor-piercing shells; from 700 m at the front part by sub-caliber part. 85-mm AA gun from 1000 m at sides, rear and turret. 122-mm model 1931 from 1000 m by armor-piercing shell at the front part. Rear, sides and turret can be hit from 1500 m. 152-mm gun-howitzer model 1937 from 1000 m by armor-piercing shell at sides, rear and turret. Front part can be hit from 500 m. Commanders of gun crews and gunners must allow tank to close up, as close as possible, and open fire from distances securing reliable destruction. -------------------------------------------------- Amazing!! No??

Yes Jason i agree absolutely with u. I never thought that battlefront was going to change any pen. or thick armor data.... but i hope at least the cost for different units were fixed. Is absolutely absurd that it´s said the soviets had a lot of more casualties than germans and at same time the cost the most of soviet tanks is more or less equivalent to the german tanks or infantry. I dont understand yet how could win the war the soviets

Then i'm paranoic.... yes Anybody has noticed that the german tanks are a lot of more accurate than soviets to close range? Yes it seem i´m turning mad... but i cannot evite it... i´ve observed a lot of times as soviet tanks need at least two shoots to hit a target to close distance....in the other hand the germans tanks hit the first shoot almost ever.... to 500 meters and more is rare that a soviet hit in the first shoot...500-300 m they have a 20-30% of chance to hit at first...300-100 50% more or less and 100 or less 100% the most of times.... Ok this doesnt mean anything i had very bad luck. But i´ve seen this a lot of times.... i thought that it was for the crew experience... i did the test.... and no... soviet crack crew had the same or worse accuracy than REGULAR german crew... of course a lot of worse than elite or crack german crew that hit 100% to 500 m or more. I did the test 4 or 5 times in hotseat mode to see the % hit accuracy in both tanks and amazingly this prediction is not correct a lot of times...I.e. to 800 m is usual the game gives a % of chance at first about 5 or 8% to hit.... the real is.. the german hit in first shoot about 20% of times or more...the soviets NEVER or very very rare time. In close fight the usual is i´d said before..... soviets minimum 2 shoots to hit, german only one. I thought it was for the german "good optics" or better guns.... but i´ve read ur answer and now i dont know. Well sincerely i think i can not be objective. I´m turning PARANOIC I´ll uninstall the game a time to i´ll get back my normal "status" hehehe Anybody more is "paranoic" as me? Note.- Both tanks were front to front static in flat terrain... I did the test with different models without notice significant change beetween them. Usually i used the IS2 and PzIVh or J (not tiger for i know the ABSOLUTELY and UPSTANDING desing of this feline....hehehehe). If somebody is interested i saw too that the most of times the PzIV won....yes 60-70% of times its better ROF and accuracy disable easily the frontal turret armor of IS2... never the IS2 frontal hull that is unpenetrable as i´ve seen......

Is there any reason why the accuracy to CLOSE range (100-300 m) is a lot of bigger in a model of tank than another?? Not crew or other topics that the tank self design i mean. Optics..?? Gun...?? Ammunition maybe..??

"Artillery was the main weapon of the Red Army. Not all Russian cannon types could penetrate Tiger's armor, but concentrating the fire of all possible guns on the tanks could heavily damage them, even to the point of stopping the engine or detonating the ammunition. The 76.2mm ZIS-3 cannon, using anti-tank shells, could penetrate Tiger side armor (at 300-400 meters) or destroy the running gear, while it couldn't penetrate the frontal armor. Because of poor maneuverability, the Tiger could be an easy target for an anti-tank gun in defense. Only the 85mm anti-aircraft gun and especially 122mm A-19 cannon could destroy the Tiger at extended ranges. The Soviets made many anti-tank guns, up to 100mm in bore diameter, by the end of the war." "During the famous tank battle near Prokhorovka, the Soviet commanders tried to take advantage of the greater mobility of the T-34 and the assault guns by closing in to short ranges and shooting at the Tiger's thinner side armor. The result of the battle was that the new German tanks were equal to older Soviet tanks because of the correct choice of the battlefield. This was the great maneuver of Gen. Col. Rotmistrov and Gen Leut. Zhadov. The battle ended with almost equal losses, but Soviets kept more tanks in reserve for the counterattack, while Germans were unable to continue with their offensive." What do u think about this....? Lies..? Or right...?

Sorry Walpurgis i dont want to be sarcastic only joke.... i dont write very well in english and for that many times i am not especially subtile As u say is in september when the T34 have tung. ammunition and no every tank has if u buy them in plts (so they are cheaper). They usually carry 1 or 2 pieces of ammunition what means that u need a lot of luck to hit with a tung. shoot. Think that the low soviet accuracy needs a minimum of 2-3 shoots to hit a target included closed ranges (300 m or less) a lot of times...... The cost of 3 T34 is similar but not equivalent the game doesnt tolerate 1 point more than allowed..... so if u have 2000 points to purchase they are 2000 points and no 2001. I mean that whith the cost of a tiger u can buy only 2 T34 no more.... with that 2 T34 u have to close to 100-150 meters of a tiger.... well the tiger doesnt fight alone... others tanks or inf. can support it. So if the terrain is very (VERY) favourable to soviets maybe u can fight tigers to close range...if not u die without shoot them 1 time. Before sept. 43 no tung. is available.... I always speaked about tigers... but the really curious is that the T34 is an easy target too for PzIVh and STUg when i always had read that it wasnt so... in equal conditions almost ever the german tanks have a lot of advantages except the speed.... Of course in scenaries of 2x2 Km2 this caracteristic is secundary.... so as i see the game is seriously disbalanced for germans...

Amen Jason...u are great

Sorry for no replying before....easter holidays Well the soviets had in war about 22 millions of casualties the most of them civilian people (about a 50%-60% i have read) The germans had about 12 millions of casualties, the 80% in east front more or less. They had the most lot of civilians killed in the allied city bombardements and the last war. But in almost all the war they hadnt civilians killed in east front. If u calculate lightly u see that this means a relation of casualties about 1 to 2 or 1 to 3 as maximum. In any way if we admite that the russians were killed greatly we would have to conclude that obviously the soviet inf. at least must be a lot of cheaper than now is. In the other hand.... a lot of T34s to kill tigers..?? WoW really an original answer. Really there is some way now to kill a german tank that using and "suiciding" a lot of russians tanks of course...including using 20 T70s vs a tiger u can disable "amazingly"!!!! We conclude then that the cost of a tiger must be equivalent to at least 3 T34s? Well if u tell me not to this point i must take the triple of points playing russians that when i am playing germans really is a absolutely upstanding solution!!!!! An idea better..... i´ll take 10 times more points!!!!! hehehehe sure it´ll be easy. Only a trouble..... the IA cannot kill my tigers how i can not set 5 times more points for it. No for it kills the cats..but my tigers run out its amunnition..... The soviet tungs is a lot of times unusable... why....?? simple the IA use it stupidly a lot of times.... i have been a lot of times to 150 meters rear of a tiger and my T34 76 doesnt use its tung. In another times the T34 simplely reverse fearing the rear of tiger hehehe....

THIS GERMANS WERE ABSOLUTELY INCOMPETENT OR STUPIDS..... Yes after reading everythig here said is my conclusion. I dont know why the germans can loose the war in east front... Perhaps do they loose it to operational level?? And What does mean this?? More tanks maybe..... well the russian tanks have more or less the same cost than germans in game so they couldnt have a great superiority in number of tanks in battlefield.... Better tanks?? Imposible when any stug (the cheaper german armor unit the most of time) is unpenetrable in front to any usual soviet ATG and to the main soviet battle tank to summer of 44 (the T34 /76). More infantry...better infantry... well the soviet cost for infantry is very similar to german and it hasnt good AT weapons or better light weapons.... More support or better?? well maybe the soviets had a lot of mechanized divisions that i dont know.... Aircraft or artillery?? Is the soviet artillery cheaper than german in game?? I think no... included a lot of slower too, Aircraft then, maybe?? Well at this point i only can think in a thing.... the soviet strategy was absolutely superior and smarter than german..... worse and poor units... no significant numerical superiority (o maybe yes?) a lot of civilians killed... i dont know how they could win the war... so the the german generals were the most incompetent soldiers in the human history.... What do u think... how could to loose the german the war in the east front?? Maybe all and every soviet soldier was an hero??

Pz. do u mean this episode?? -------------------------------------------------- At midnight on August 13th, a growing noise of tank engines was heard coming from the German side. Before dawn, the commander of the 53rd GTBn returned from the headquarters to his tank, which was employed as an observation post between the tanks of the 1st Tank Battalion, which were hidden between low sand dunes. In the front and on the right side of the Soviet positions, there was a valley with a road to Staszów. On the left hand side, there was a field with stacks of hay, where Ivushkin's tanks were camouflaged. Near the entry of the valley stood Lieutenant A. P. Oskin's "thirty-four" (T-34). A. Stetzenko was the driver, A. Merkhaidarov was the gunner, A. Grushin was the radio operator, and A. Khalychev was the loader. Colonel Arkhipov and Ivushkin hid the tank in the haystacks, and ordered Oskin to hold his fire until given a special order. The next morning was covered in mist, which obstructed the view. From the observation point of the 53rd GTBr commander, neither the village of Ogledów, nor the valley, nor the tanks hidden in the haystacks were visible. The morning silence was broken by a growing hum of tank engines, and soon the incoming noise of tanks' tracks was heard. From the sky, one could hear Junkers planes approaching Staszów. German artillery began to fire. The rounds passed high above the brigade's forward line. Enemy reconnaissance neither located the brigade's front line, nor spotted the ambush positions. On August 13th, at 07:00 a.m. under the cover of the mist, the Germans started to advance on the unnamed hill with eleven King Tigers and a few armored personnel carriers with infantry. Ivushkin's voice was heard on the radio: "The tanks are gone. I can't see them, but I can hear them. They are moving through the valley." ................................ It is worth mentioning that the Russian 6th GTC did not have significant numerical superiority. Ready for the German assault were nine T-34-76's from the 53rd GTBr, and nine T-34-76's and ten T-34-85's from the 52nd GTBr. The 51st GTBr, positioned to the north, had eleven T-34-76's and four T-34-85's. At Staszów there were eleven IS-2 heavy tanks, and one IS-85 heavy tank from the 71st Independent Guards Heavy Tank Regiment. .......................... -------------------------------------------------- Do u want to know the rest of this story?? T34/76s confronting panthers V, King tigers and StuG and no numerical superiority..... this soviets must be really stupid or maybe heroes..??

Well....... -------------------------------------------------- REPORT ABOUT OPERATIONS OF THE 71ST INDEPENDENT GUARDS HEAVY TANK REGIMENT FROM 14 JULY TO 31 AUGUST 1944 In the morning of 13 August 1944, the Regiment, in cooperation with 289th Infantry Regiment of 97th Infantry Division began an advance towards Oglendov. The enemy tanks, which were on the outskirts, blocked the infantry attack. At that moment, the tank platoon of Guards Senior Lieutenant Klimenkov was advancing from his previously prepared position and opened fire on the enemy tanks. As a result, after a short engagement, Klimenkov destroyed one tank and damaged another (these were the first King Tiger's to be destroyed) and the infantry entered Ogledov without facing any serious resistance. Simultaneously, from the height 272.1, seven King Tigers attacked our positions. Concealed in the bushes to the east of Mokree, the tank of Guards Senior Lieutenant Udalov let the enemy approach within 700-800 metres and then opened fire on the leading tank. After several accurate shots, one tank was destroyed and another one damaged. When the enemy started to retreat, Udalov drove his tank along the forest road towards the enemy and, from the edge of the forest, opened fire again. Leaving one more tank on fire, the enemy retreated. Soon, the King Tigers attacked again. This time they were advancing towards Ponik, where the Guards Lieutenant Beliakov's was in laying in ambush. He opened fire from the distance of 1000 metres. By the third round, he had set fire to one tank and forced others to retreat. During the day the tankers, in co-operation with artillery, repulsed 7 armored attacks and inflicted heavy human and technical losses on the enemy. Enemy losses from 14 July to 31 August 1944 Burnt out: Tiger - 4, King Tiger - 4, Panther - 3, Ferdinand self-propelled gun - 1, 128mm self-propelled gun - 1, Armored cars - 3. Damaged: Tiger - 1, King Tiger - 2, Panther - 3. Guns destroyed of different calibres: 23, Machine-guns destroyed: 22, Soldiers and officers killed: 600. Regimental losses: JS-122’s destroyed - 3. JS-122’s damaged - 7. (Three were repaired by the Regiment and four were sent for rebuilding by the Repair Center.) Killed In Action: Officers - 3, These included the Regimental Commander Guards Lieutenant-Colonel Judin, sergeants and solders - 10. Wounded: Officers - 8, Sergeants and privates - 36. ............................ Conclusions: 1. The main armament of the JS-122 remains the most powerful of all existing types of tanks. The 122 mm round has great armor-piercing capability and this makes these tanks the best solution against other heavy enemy tanks. 2. The large quantity of smoke from the gun when fired reveals the tank’s position. 3. The experience of defensive combat in the bridgehead, revealed that enemy tanks avoid areas defended by JS-122's. As a result, this situation often results in a change of the attack's direction, looking for the less well defended areas. 71st Independent Guards Heavy Tank Regiment Commander Guards Lieutenant-Colonel Shapar'. -------------------------------------------------- I Know this doesnt mean anything but.... it doesnt seem the soviets IS evited the direct confrontation with tigers and germans heavies... The document is a lot of larger than i traslate here...... About the rest of things said here... well JasonC knows a lot of more than me and i agree with him again...