tabpub Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 The curious part of me asks this of Rex B.: While the subject AFV was being watched, did you see a turret turning on it to take shots? Or did you see the entire chassis turning before a shot was taken by it? I am not being critical here and don't get me wrong; I don't know if the mis ID'd vehicle would act that way or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Originally posted by Rex Bellator: Wow, this is turning into a hot topic Not as hot as the weather here, so I jump in to cool down a bit To all those who say this could happen and isn't a problem I'm afraid I still vehemently disagree. Some have said that from a certain angle a Jagdpanther can look like a Panther. May I respectfully remind them that I had hundreds of men on the field, Veterans at that, it was clear, the Jagdpanther was almost constantly moving around on the top of a small hill and eventually came down to within 70m of my lead troops, my men were taking views from many angles, all 360 degrees by the game end and probably 180 degrees on any particular turn, we were at an average range of 150-200m, many had binoculars, some had gunsights, and yet after 20 plus minutes of everyone watching it swanning around from all angles I'm expected to believe that the prevailing opinion was that it was a turreted medium tank :eek: Regarding the binoculars: You had your "lead" men - suggesting they were moving. It is my idea that HQs on the move have their spotting bonus reduced. This fits reality. BTW: Why should the grunts look at the tank with binoculars while it doesn't matter to them if it has a turret or not. This beast is a job for the tanks in the rear, and they hope the job is done before they have to close in - if they ever intend to do so. If I had the time to use my binoculars during an attack, I would not look at the tank I already seen but at anything else I might have overseen. Conclusion: The grunts are not expected to id the tank. Should they notice that it is a Jagdpantehr instead of a Panther, they would still need to know that the tankers think it is a plain Panther. Now in CM, we have that borg spotting thing, but in the real world? Conclusion: If they do id the tank, it would only be borg spotting if they told the tankers. So the only ones who would care for what that tank is are your tankers. Now at which angles did they see the tank. If they had lots of plain view on the sides, they should have been able to kill the Jagdpanther, as then they had lots of opportunities to shoot its side. Given that even a standard Panther can kill most of them, they are under enormous stress, and probably all they do is to certify the tank is in the middle of their sights, firing each round ASAP. Now given what you fielded against it, there are lots of explosions on or near that tank. Smoke and dust fill the air. Soviet gunsights don't work that good in fog - or dust. So it is understandable that the Panther is mis-ID'd by the tankers, too. The only thing I can't understand is your tactic. Why didn't you go for flank shots? Gruß Joachim [ August 11, 2003, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 When it comes to mis-iding, you can have all sorts of wierd and wonderfuls. I've had Russky troops spotting King Tigers, wetting their knickers, only to find out that they were Panzer-IVs. I think it also depends on what year and month you play in as to what they're detected as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 The answer is obvious Rex is not used to them and the AI factors it into the game QED "In our regular Sunday afternoon TCP game my buddy decided to go for the uber-cat and bought a Jagdpanther to the field. We normally stay away from the very heavy stuff so I hadn't seen this problem before." Incredible programming BTS my helmet is doffed. By the way on a tanks first unleashing on the enemy [ presuming they have not released pretty pictures of it on the test track ] how do you describe it? Most soldiers might be in the descriptive " I was **** scared but it was ******* big!" class. So what period were you playing? Given the limited number of Jagdpanthers they would not be seen often anyway. So Panther class .. seems reasonable to me. Of course what gets my goat is cowering from Tiger's that ain't - or come to that vice-versa ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 in perspective of how other units are IDed in the GAME, it's obviously a bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code13 Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 This must be the first case I have come across though where the vehicle identified was less power ful than it was in reality. Most of the time a has been shown it says "tiger" where there is just a PZ4 there. But I agree with the poster who mentioned the "blue on blue" fire of both gulf wars. Crew with the latest equipment, top grade IFF support and all the vision enhancers you could shake a stick at were still blowing holes in their own side, so looking at that, is it any surprise that some grunts with no binoculars that had almost certainly not ever seen said tank before at all (no matter what their grade) got it wrong. I dont think this is a game bug, just another example of the top grade programming of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 I sometimes feel the chassis of the vehicle has as much to do with the ID as the turret, or even no turret at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 I'm also curious to know if the generic 'Panther?'-type icon turned it's Turret or not. I remember mid-ID'd Britsh Tank Destroyers in BO showing the Gun pointing the wrong way, a clear sign they were Archers or somesuch. This does seem like a small Bug to me, but if the whole Tank is turning to aquire targets it's one with an 'insider' workaround. strt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Originally posted by Code13: This must be the first case I have come across though where the vehicle identified was less power ful than it was in reality. Try early '42. You will see tanks id'd as T34. Their armor ratings are those of the standard '41 model. Yet they are the M42 model with cast turret or the M42. And then try to get your PzIIIj(short) to fire tungsten at them. It uses plain AP, as plain AP can kill the M41 model(s) You know that it is a M42 after hail fire to the front ricochets despite the "Kill: OK" label. Yet even you can't tell it to your tankers. :mad: Gruß Joachim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Originally posted by Madmatt: As to your specific situation, I dont find it hard at to accept that units would confuse a Jadgpanther with a Panther. Same gun, same suspension, same chassis, similar size, similar profile from certain angles."Same gun"??????????? Shame on you, Matt! Shame, shame, shame! Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Originally posted by Madmatt: to your specific situation, I dont find it hard at to accept that units would confuse a Jadgpanther with a Panther. Same gun, same suspension, same chassis, similar size, similar profile from certain angles. Madmatt Madmatt, Just a slight correction. Different gun. Jagdpanther: 88mm Pak 43/3 L/71 Panther: 75mm KwK 42 L/70 On the mis-identification side, same engine noise. And I see Michael beat me to it Gordon [ August 11, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Gordon ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 The absolutely worst case of misidentification I've come across was in CMBO, when a Chaffee turned out to be a Super Pershing! :mad: That one was a very, very costly mistake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Originally posted by Jarmo: The absolutely worst case of misidentification I've come across was in CMBO, when a Chaffee turned out to be a Super Pershing!Well, that one at least is understandable; same gun, same suspension, same chassis... Michael [ August 11, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: Doh, I meant to say similar LOOKING gun. The KwK42 L/70 and the PaK43/3 L/71 are very similar looking. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 O.K., I'll throw my two cents into the ring. If sound mods had been installed with Rex's version of CMBB I believe he may have been able to correctly guess at what the mysterious target was due to the different noises a Panther 75mm gun makes compared with an '88. The noise the gun makes can often give away what the true nature of the beast is. My bugbear with misidentification is when King Tigers are regularly misidentified as Tiger IE's. The difference in looks are quite marked between the boxy, non sloped armoured Tiger IE & a King Tiger. If anything, a King Tiger should be misidentified as a Panther since at least both have similar angled armour aspects and both are still very large tanks compared with, say a more classic medium sized tank like a Panzer IV. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Malan Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Now I have seen it all and can die in peace! BTS my troops are not misidentifying tanks under FoW correctly...please fix or somfink. I really cannot believe that someone can blame the game for a one AFV mis-id. Now, if I were playing Chess, and a short thing that started in the front row of my opponents pieces suddenly moved diagonally 6 squares and check mated me on a lateral...well that would be different. Do people really think that armies go around basing tactics on the exact TYPE of AFV in the distance? Face it...your plan was not robust, and did not survive contact with the enemy..... Better luck next time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Even with EFOW CMBB is far too nice to gamers, the accuracy of IDing is far too high. The ability to pinpoint infantry is ridiculously high. Greater EFOW for CMAK please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 The average Russian grunt would have only seen/heard the ocassional distant Panther/PzIV/StugIII at that stage of the war. So if an unfamiliar JadgPanther shows up (perhaps on a distant ridgeline, back-lit against the setting sun)their first thought would be it's too big to be a Stug or a PzIV, and it certainly SOUNDS like a Panther! JadgPanther were rare beasts in the best of times. At the first sound of the engine and the first glimpse of those big roadwheels one would naturally yell "PANTHER!!!... uh... I think." Even in the excellent book 'Is Paris Burning?" written in the 60s the author puts 88s behind every haystack and even has Panthers mounting 88s. So you can't be too hard on the poor Russian soldier in 44-45 encountering a vehicle type that had only been in combat for a couple months by then. [ August 11, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 Can I just remind some posters to read a whole thread, and that I've played CM for years. Kindly address my second post where I tried to explain further or please do not make comments which are already answered previously: Some have said that from a certain angle a Jagdpanther can look like a Panther. May I respectfully remind them that I had hundreds of men on the field, Veterans at that, it was clear, the Jagdpanther was almost constantly moving around on the top of a small hill and eventually came down to within 70m of my lead troops, my men were taking views from many angles, all 360 degrees by the game end and probably 180 degrees on any particular turn, we were at an average range of 150-200m, many had binoculars, some had gunsights, and yet after 20 plus minutes of everyone watching it swanning around from all angles I'm expected to believe that the prevailing opinion was that it was a turreted medium tank We all love the Mis-ID feature in CM, no one would ever wish to be without it, but I'm afraid in this particular case (like choice of the Gun Tractor for an unspotted Halftrack, remember the fun I had with that) BFC have chosen the wrong unit to show, it should obviously be shown as an Assault Gun, or better yet a new category of Tank Hunter. I have just done a quick test scenario where I purchased a whole variety of German AFVs in 1945 and had a Veteran infantry platoon sat on an open flat map trying to ID them at around only 150m range. Most of the estimates were eminently sensible... PzII = Light tank Hetzer/Stugs/Jpz/PzIV-70/Brumbar = Assault Gun Marder/Nashorn/Hummel = SP Gun PzIV = PzIV PzIII = PzIII Panther = Panther Tiger = King Tiger and then we get the silly ones Jadgpanther = Panther Sturmtiger = King Tiger Jadgtiger = King Tiger It is obvious that anything with Tiger or Panther in it's name is classed as it's tank namesake when not fully ID'd. I really cannot see how any of those three when looked at from 150m away especially with binoculars could be mistaken for a turreted tank by all kinds of onlookers and from all sorts of angles. However in the case of the Sturmtiger and Jadgtiger it isn't such a problem because the gun and armour on a possible King Tiger is enough to scare any unit away from trying to take it on. However, the Jadgpanther crew is laughing, everyone apparently thinks that it has a nice soft turret sat on top of it will stand around trying to get through it and wondering why they just seem to be getting upper hull ricochets. I'm afraid it did cost me the battle, as I was assaulting I was quite happy to trade probably a couple of ISUs for what appeared to be a Panther by penetrating its relatively weak front turret, so had no hesitation in trying to overwhelm it frontally. I don't care about losing, never have, but it shouldn't have happened. Some people have already gone down the wrong track completely, Mis-IDing was certainly very common and no-one says it wasn't, but if you think about the examples we all know then turreted AFVs got mis-ID's as turreted AFVs, and the constant tendancy was to exagerrate the threat, not downplay it.I sincerely hope I don't see any more stupid comments like 'Why didn't you try for a flank' or 'Play with FOW off' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman2000 Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Hope away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Rex, it is not your right to demand people answer your specific questions in this thread. You only started it, you don't own it. I also don't like to see someone call someone else's post "stupid". I have told you why the Mis-Id occured and that it is not a bug. You don't agree. Sorry to hear it but its not going to change. And with that, I am closing up this thread before it gets out of hand. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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