Russian tanks and TDs.....

[Johanneski]

Hello,

I am new to these forums but have been playing CMBB off and on since release and up until now focused on playing as a German--all was well.

However, about two months ago, I decided to play as Russian and despite the many battles, tests, quick-match even point armor battles (early war, late war), mixed, meeting, defend or attack; I find the Russian tanks and TDs wanting in almost every regard. Is it possible to either make a quick match with a more realistic ratio of Ivan:Fritz (offsetting the incredible Axis armor superiority) or is there perhaps a homemade modification that beefs the Russian tanks up some? Thank you for any assistance

[Bone_Vulture]

"Beefing" Soviet tanks wouldn't be fair. I suggest that you make a deal with your opponent about a handicap bonus for the Soviets. +25% should do.

[Folbec]

I only play regular russians with low rarity in PBEM, and my current win % is about 70%. So it is doable.

Just stop relying on frontal armor :eek: . Flank, move, use infantry, AT guns. German tanks are expensive, you will be able to outnumber them .

Or only play very early war when german armor is crap when faced with T34 .

[Joachim]

If your opponent uses StuGs with 80mm frontal and the period is '42 to '43 you will be in trouble when just dueling it out.

- fire and maneuvre if you can't kill thru the frontal armor

- use numbers if you loose in 1:1 duels

- play other periods where you have low rarity tiger killers (57mm, 85mm, 76mm FlaK

- 57mm ATGs

- play rarity off (or variable)

- never rely on your frontal armor... use every tank like it was a Marder.

- If you have no target, you are turret-down. The infantry does the spotting. (the only exception is when you are keyholed and want to interdict traffic)

[MikeyD]

By '45 veteran Guards units are a handful for the Germans to deal with. You've got decent T34-85s as well as lend-lease 76mm gun Shermans which come off as remarkably competent tanks in CMBB. 57mm anti-tank guns are very effective, and purchasing a few IL-2 Sturmoviks should even the odds against any Tiger II that's on the map.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

...and purchasing a few IL-2 Sturmoviks should even the odds against any Tiger II that's on the map.

HAHAHA!

Sorry. Just the thought of ground attack planes ever doing what they're supposed to do in CM:BB sounds absurd to me.

[Sergei]

Yes, gives you a clue of where the term "Flying Circus" comes from.

[YankeeDog]

In a straight-up, armor vs. armor fight in good weather, fairly open terrain, and dry ground, German armor has a huge advantage. Interestingly, in my experience, this is exactly the kind of conditions that many CM players like to use, which probably explains why there are so many complaints about the inferiority of Soviet armor.

So if you want to see Soviet armor in a better light, some thoughts:

1) Play ground conditions at Damp or worse. Especially the T-34/76s have excellent ground pressure ratings. The real anti-armor buy for the Germans (especially mid-war) are the 80mm StuGs (the T-34/76's bane). But these StuGs have poor ground pressure ratings and bog often in bad conditions. So less than ideal ground conditions can make it substantially more difficult for the German player to deploy StuGs effectively.

2) Play rarity off. Rarity in CM seems to be derived from how common a vehicle was within a combatant's overall fleet. So Panthers, with only about 6,000 produced over the course of the entire war, ends up with a pretty minor rarity penalty by mid-late war because the overall German AFV fleet was so small by this time. Being able to play with rarer Soviet types like T-34/57s and SU-100s without a rarity penalty substantially evens the odds.

3) Play in conditions that create shorter range engagements. Closer terrain is one way to do this. You can also accomplish this by playing in the fog, or at dawn or dusk, etc.

4) If the German player insists on playing large numbers of the historically very rare Big Cats all the time, there are other tricks. The Sturmoviks mentioned is one good one. Another favorite of mine one the defense is 203mm artillery and TRPs. Often, the map narrows down likely avenues of armored advance to a few options (ESPECIALLY if you play the aforementioned "damp" or worse ground conditions). Soviet 203mm Arty isn't too expensive, especially if you buy Greens or Conscripts, and with a few well-placed TRPs and a little help from your opponent, you can often get lucky and blow the cr*p out of a Tiger or two.

5) Finally, remember that while from mid-war on most Soviet tanks are weaker than German counterparts Tank vs. Tank, they're as good or better vs. soft targets and infantry. If you're playing straight-up armor battles, you're not going to see this capability of Russian armor, and so it's inevitably going to pale in comparison to the German types. IMHO To get more or less even 'pure armor' battles, you either need to give the Russians a point bonus, or somehow limit the German player's use of Big Cats and StuGs.

Cheers,

YD

[MikeyD]

People always complain about airpower but I've never had a problem. Admittedly, they seem to prefer attacking trucks over Stugs, but they also prefer attacking Tigers above everything else, as they should! When a shadow crosses the map and suddenly there's a couple smoke columns on the other side of a far hill i think "There' something I won't have to worry about later on."

And no I've never (well, hardly ever) been attacked by my own planes.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

they also prefer attacking Tigers above everything else, as they should!

True! Like in an ongoing game, where my Stuka attacked my Tiger. Of course it missed (I've never seen planes actually hit tanks with bombs or rockets), but managed to kill 25 Germans.

[Folbec]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

In a straight-up, armor vs. armor fight in good weather, fairly open terrain, and dry ground, German armor has a huge advantage. Interestingly, in my experience, this is exactly the kind of conditions that many CM players like to use, which probably explains why there are so many complaints about the inferiority of Soviet armor.

YD

Yes never let your opponent chose the best terrain for his tank fleet. I always play with :

- random rarity on (no big deal if off)

- random terrain

- random type of battle (some players who are good at ME suck at attacking / defending)

- random weather ( I reroll for heavy snow, if the map is too big)

- random pre game casualties (make unballanced purchases unwise, may kill this 500pts KT, specially in lower points battles)

this gives a lot more variety, and push your opponent to buy "ballanced forces".

[Sergei]

Of course, the ultimate answer is to abandon Quick Battles for good and stick to user-made scenarios. There's hundreds of them for CMBB.

[Folbec]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Of course, the ultimate answer is to abandon Quick Battles for good and stick to user-made scenarios. There's hundreds of them for CMBB.

But too many are of the "race against time" 20 to 30 turn variety, that only gives the option to rush at top speed. Or are not designed to be playable blind.

[Thin Red Line]

But too many are of the "race against time" 20 to 30 turn variety, that only gives the option to rush at top speed. Or are not designed to be playable blind.

It was true of the very early scenarios. Things have greatly improved since, as the authors have learned from experience.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

most German tanks are good only on a front-to-front duelling, as German tanks have truly inferior armor on their sides & rear and have serious mobility issues. all German tanks, save the superheavy ones, can be destroyed even by light tanks. just make use of their weak sides & poor mobility.

[MikeyD]

A positive disadvantage for those ubquitous Stugs is the VERy slow rotation rate in CMBB (its faster in CMBO and CMAK). Nothing feels better than flanking an überStug and catching him with his pants down. ...Except maybe getting a point-blank rear shot on a Tiger.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeyD:

...and purchasing a few IL-2 Sturmoviks should even the odds against any Tiger II that's on the map.

HAHAHA!

Sorry. Just the thought of ground attack planes ever doing what they're supposed to do in CM:BB sounds absurd to me. </font>

[Pzman]

Having use Air craft a great deal in little battles I make for myself, I have found that IL-2s are great for taking out enemy armor. Yes there are the odd friendly fire issues, but I find more often than not they hit the enemy.

[Corvidae]

Ummmm,,, russian tanks are not as good as german tanks??? no way, lol, that is the whole story of the war, Crappy russian tanks beat superior german tanks by learning to get close without being spoted, and doing so in large numbers, use terrain to your advantage, flank them, ambush them, or avoid them, the only thing the russians had was the K V's, a KV could survive a sluging match, but a T34 was doomed if it was spoted by anything biger than a 37mm pz3,

[Panzer76]

This always surprise me. I prefer playing as Russians, and I love their armour. They have a difficult time in 42-43, but other than that, they beat the germans hands down.

And in 42-43, get a 57mm ATG or two, or even better, a captured Stug And, ofcos, flank.

The problem for a player that has always played with the "uber" axis armour is that they dont know to handle the russian armour. The same people have probably never used a PzIV.

For tips, go to, (taaadaaaa) the tips and tactics section, you will find plenty of useful posts there, and even here, if you search.

[Jack Carr]

Remember the old Soviet addage, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

Or something like that.

I like to play the Germans and almost always play mid to late war scenarios giving the Russian player +50% or better. My two uber-panzers are always up against 15-20 Russian tanks, most of which are T-34/85's. Regardless of whether I am fielding Tigers or Panthers, It's a hard battle with many nail-biting moments. The Russian 85mm can quickly score a kill if I use my armor foolishly. I think if you play this way, you will see very quickly why the German uber-tanks were not so uber after all. If you put things in a historical perspective in late war scenarios, the lost Tiger was replaced by a grenadier with a panzerfaust while the loss of a T-34 was replaced with two or three more of the same.