Flamethrowers vs. Armor

[Colonel J Lee]

I wondering if any of you have used flamethrower teams against tanks or armored cars and what results have you seen. I'm about to spring a concealed team on a friend of mine (our first PBEM of CMBO) and don't want to waste these precious German lives if unnecessary. Thanks.

[tar]

If they get a good hit, they will destroy the armored vehicle. The real problem with flamethrowers is that they are such high priority targets that they often die quickly once discovered. With a decent ambush, however, you should be able to get off two shots against a single target.

You definitely don't want to take on too much at once, since the return fire is, quite frankly, murder. A surprise strike, though, can be pretty devastating.

Good luck. (Are you sure your opponent doesn't read this discussion board?)

[Colonel J Lee]

Thanks for the very simple but equally helpful response, Tom.

Two things: my opponent DOES read this forum, but there is a LOT here and chances are he won't see this post as he has only tonight to see it ( he will be sending the turn back tonight and already has that armored unit about 40 meters from the hill plateau). I think he's toast as the unit is alone and my guy is going to be rotating toward the contact point while in a hiding position. I kept the FT team in the rear, trailing along. He just decided to send one harassing armored car into my rear and doesn't realize my other boys see the car and have alerted the FT team. Will be fun to see what happens. thanks again,

jim lee

[MOS was 71331]

Don't expect too much from your flamethrower teams. In one PBEM action, I had a team hidden adjacent to a light building. When an enemy squad entered the building from the opposite side without spotting my team, I was expecting to eliminate the entire squad during the next turn. I was really disappointed when TWO bursts from the flamethrower inflicted only four casualties and routed the survivors. As my other nearby units had already been weakened, they inflicted no additional casualties on the fleeing troops.

[Ron53]

JJL will you let us know how your Flame abush turns out ?

[Colonel J Lee]

Most definitely, Ron. I'll let you know. I did a little experimenting last night since I can't wait for my friend to get the file back to me.

I took 20 minutes last night to set the battle up as a hotseat game and positioned both sides per the current position of the units in the PBEM game with my friend. The AC took out the FT team quickly - never got off a shot, but the nearby "lead" pioneer platoon "panzerfausted" the AC - toast. Hopefully, I will get similar results tonight or tomorrow. I'll let you know.

[Colonel J Lee]

Happy to report the following: the M8 greyhound AC decided to stick around at the crest of the hill and blast away at the Pioneer squad. Well, I decided to run the pioneer platoon HQ and his staff right past the AC to it's right hoping it would spin and be "diverted" allowing the FT team to get off its shot. The AC ingored the commanding officer and continued ripping away at the pioneer squad. Well, that gave the FT team time to stand up and toast the AC crew anyway....and that they did. The "Info" box credited them with the kill. However, the crew which abandoned the AC was gunned down in 30 seconds by the platoon HQ!! What team work. I replayed it about 10 times. There was a lot of yelling. I think a couple of guys caught fire. This is too fun, guys. On the whole, in my first scenario, I'm doing fair, but can see I'm "one step behind" in most combat categories. But "British Tommy" is teaching me. :0 )

[Saedor]

I just played an Axis Attack scenario vs the ai in which I was the Germans. The Russians had no fewer than 6 flamethrowers, all of which I managed to kill. The only one that had any significant effect was one that took a shot at my Pz II (it was a 1941 scenario), and caused the crew to bail out. I guess it got hot in there.

Surprisingly, the crew continued to fight successfully on foot, and aided in taking one of the objective flags by the end of the game.

So... my experience from this game is that flamethrowers are a high profile target. If you don't use them successfully the first time, you probably won't get a second.

[British Tommy]

LOL! just read the messages

I was hoping to flank the 'lone' infantry unit by the side of the hill but quickly realised things were getting out of hand when other infantry units started to appear. I ordered the armoured car to cease firing and reverse away from the hill.On the replay it continued firing at the infantry unit but did start to reverse...but then stopped! Watching the replay from my side of the lines, I could hear the flamethrower but at no time did I spot it.To make sure my armoured car was finished off, the infantry (we know now it was a pioneer unit) threw a satchel charge at the burning armoured car!

Well done Jim, your learning fast!

[Wicky]

Foot flamers can quite happily fire from inside buildings without bringing down the house as I found in CMBB scenario.

This gives them a good degree of cover/protection in ambush situations and prolongs their existence as they'll still be targeted as a priority from any enemies in LOS.

[Ogiwan]

Actually, i was rather suprised about the effectiveness of flamethrowers against tanks (although i think i heard something about them being used against armor before):

i was fighting for the Tractor Factory in The 'Grad (Stalingrad), and a pair of German Pz IV (i think) came up one of my flanks. I was trying to get a Pioneer platoon in position to drop their demo charges on the tanks, but they never threw anything. So, in desperation, i ordered the flamethrower to burn the tanks.

The first tank went up like a firecraker on the first shot, the second tank was abandoned after the first shot, and two crewmen escaped (they were actually the only two people in the German force who weren't KIA, WIA, or captured.

I spent the remaining two flame shots trying to get the second tank to blow up, but to no avail. Maybe i should have tried the Pioneers.....

[Los]

If a wine bottle of gas can wreck a tank why would it surprise you that a flamethrower can?

Los

[Colonel J Lee]

Hey Guys:

That flamethrower team (actually down to 1 man) survived several more turns and just torched an entire squad's worth of men by himself, sending up in flames his second building. Unfortunately, his award will be posthumous as a US Squad just arrived and shot him down after the building and US squad in it were torched. But what a performance by that team.

[Joachim]

Flamers work best in a deadlocked close combat situation. While grenades are flying and most squads are suppressed, the flamer sneaks forward or rises in good cover (bldg, woods) and delivers a blow, panicking the enemy and thus breaking the stalemate. Make sure there are not many of your enemies near the FT.

If the enemy decides on targetting the FT with many units, suppression of your other units eases giving them an advantage.

Consider advancing forward with several other units. It is a hard choice to target the flamer or the advancing others.

A lone flamer in CM is lost.

Gruß

Joachim

[ January 16, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[Falcon988]

I've had a lot of success with flamethrowers against armored vehicles. In Our Backs to the Volga, a superb Stalingrad scenario by the way, one of the factories I'd captured was under pretty heavy counterattack and I could see the Russians moving tanks along the road to attack my men. So I positioned a few squads and a flamethrower team along the road to ambush them. My flamethrower burned the enemy's T-34 and immobilized a T-70, thereby saving my men in the factory.

[Code13]

Best use I ever got was in the "eagles Nest" scenario from CMBO, where the US Airborn are attacking the Bavarian hideaway.

There are a couple of bunkers halfway up a steep hill, flanking a road. Thanks to the road a halftrack with a FT team in it can rush up the hill at full speed and bail out after they have gone past the two bunkers fire arc, FT team then happily torches the two bumkers and the halftrack MG's any bailed out crew.

Other than that keep then hidden in buildings until they can ambush armour. They are of very limited use in an assault I have found. Just too slow and too prime a target.

[Lord Harmes]

I have managed to run British FT teams up to occupied buildings with some good results. The bren carrier or half track will machine gun the enemy and keep their heads down, then the FT can hop out and start with the rock 'n' roll!

I have only done this twice, and it worked great both times! But I reckon this was more to do with luck than anything else!

[Lord Harmes]

And oh yes! They work brilliantly on bunkers, and I once lost a Puma to an FT in Arnhem! It blew up! I also recall shocking a King Tiger with one... I suppose I must have fried the commander! lol

[Falcon988]

Shocking a King Tiger eh? Nice job. Those things are absolute beasts. I blew a hole right through the Russian lines using only 2 of them.

Flamethrowers are best on the defense. If you have them hide then they can ambush any approaching enemy troops and roast them. I was suprised when the same tactic works on armor. You'd think the flames would have no effect... anyone know why flamethrowers are effective even against a T-34?

[RSColonel_131st]

Because the flameable liquid goes into engine grills, fireslits, exhaust ports etc...and then wrecks either the maschine or the crew.

There's a very good operation on the CMBB-CD, called "Penny Pockets". First Battle is set during the night, with german Paratroop Pioneers advancing against russian trench lines in heavy forrest. You get a LOT of use out of the FT Teams in such conditions - even on the advance. So, night and woods are favorable.

I also had one PBEM-Enemy roast a tank of mine when I went past the house he was in...a covered arc with a hide command will work nicely.

And I had another T-34 rolling straight past two of them hiding in a trench in broad daylight - sadly I forgot to give them covered arcs so they didn't fire.

So yeah, they are definitly usefull.

[Orange]

I tried using them against the AI in an assault last night. I had two flamethrower teams and a halftrack flamethrower. The halftrack saw the first action. I advanced him behind my main assault and he torched several buildings on the flanks. Some of them held enemy units which ran and perished. My advance was being held up by an armored car. One flamethrower team advanced close enough to torch it, it blew up nicely! The two teams were towards the front as we hit the buildings. Our front line was strung out a little and some enemy units came through, killing the two flame teams in the process. The flame halftrack them went head to head with a MG halftrack. They didn't get an explosion but the enemy team bailed out after two shots of fire.

I'd say overall they were pretty useful. Against the AI I get real sloppy hence the loss of the two teams. I've yet to see them against a human opponent, but should see soon.

[CRSutton]

Originally posted by MOS was 71331:

Don't expect too much from your flamethrower teams. In one PBEM action, I had a team hidden adjacent to a light building. When an enemy squad entered the building from the opposite side without spotting my team, I was expecting to eliminate the entire squad during the next turn. I was really disappointed when TWO bursts from the flamethrower inflicted only four casualties and routed the survivors. As my other nearby units had already been weakened, they inflicted no additional casualties on the fleeing troops.

Remember, even a light building such as a house is a fairly large target. Your FT is only firing on one side and unless the windows are broken, might not even penetrate the structure on the first shot. Enemy units in the building would not be bunched up but dispersed throughout the building. Your hand held FT would not be expected to penetrate the back rooms of the building. To think that it would immolate a whole squad in a coupla bursts is unreasonable. Now a croc FT might be another story

[CRSutton]

Originally posted by Falcon988:

Shocking a King Tiger eh? Nice job. Those things are absolute beasts. I blew a hole right through the Russian lines using only 2 of them.

Flamethrowers are best on the defense. If you have them hide then they can ambush any approaching enemy troops and roast them. I was suprised when the same tactic works on armor. You'd think the flames would have no effect... anyone know why flamethrowers are effective even against a T-34?

[CRSutton]

Originally posted by Falcon988:

Shocking a King Tiger eh? Nice job. Those things are absolute beasts. I blew a hole right through the Russian lines using only 2 of them.

Flamethrowers are best on the defense. If you have them hide then they can ambush any approaching enemy troops and roast them. I was suprised when the same tactic works on armor. You'd think the flames would have no effect... anyone know why flamethrowers are effective even against a T-34?

A good dose of flame that covers a vehicle denys the crew within the tank of oxygen. Many people trapped in fire die of suffacation long before the fire gets to them. Naplam and Moltov cocktails will also drip down into engine vents and burn up critical parts such as rubber belts and hoses.

[JasonC]

Backpack flamethrowers aren't remotely able to suffocate the crew of a tank. They have only a few seconds of fuel. If they don't ignite something with those few seconds, they aren't going to leave any lasting damage. An FT could kill a CE tank, or start an engine fire if you first fire without igniting the fuel to soak the engine deck, then fire again to ignite it. Smoke from an oil fire in the engine compartment might force the crew to bail. Effects beyond that from a few seconds of FT fire are fantasy.