CMBB barb wire bug?

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Brightblade:

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You can argue as many esoteric historical possibilities/theories as you like, but if this were the intention of the designers, you would be able to give movement orders to your armor to stop somewhere in the woods on the wire. You cannot, you can only move through it.

But what is the meaning of your posting? If I move armor on wire lanes through woods or other impassable terrain, I can of course order them to stop them in the middle of it.

Did I get something wrong? </font>

[WWB]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wwb_99:

Bullethead noticed this, but had a very good point--if you are laying barbed wire, you have to clear trees, undergrowth, etc. It wants to snag on everything to begin with and there was no way in hell to put it up in a forest.

WWB

I don't agree. Barbed wire is to hold off infantry from passing through. In CMBB you can see a frame for holding the wire but that wasn't always used. Using the trees as frames is quit the same. Why do you need to cut the forest first ?

Eichenbaum </font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

The meaning of my posting is that if barbed wire through woods was supposed to be driven on, you would be able to give your armor waypoints to stop in the woods, which you cannot do. You can only move through it to the the clear on the other side, and cancel a movement order in transit to get him to stop in the woods. This answers the question of the original poster. That's all.

I was operating a Panzer IV in barbed wire in woods yesterday. It stooped just fine, both manually and from hunt and I could plot all the waypoints I wanted in the middle of the barbed wire.

[ July 27, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

The meaning of my posting is that if barbed wire through woods was supposed to be driven on, you would be able to give your armor waypoints to stop in the woods, which you cannot do. You can only move through it to the the clear on the other side, and cancel a movement order in transit to get him to stop in the woods. This answers the question of the original poster. That's all.

I was operating a Panzer IV in barbed wire in woods yesterday. It stooped just fine, both manually and from hunt and I could plot all the waypoints I wanted in the middle of the barbed wire. </font>

[walpurgis nacht]

I just tried a test with pzIVH, and I cannot get it do what you claim it can do. Was there a specific model IV you've been able to do this with? The most I could do is "pull" the waypoints into the woods the following turn.

[ July 27, 2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[White Phosphorus]

Does infantry's exposure go up when they are in wired woods? Wouldn't reduced exposure imply that the woods have been cleared somewhat to lay the wire, or to provide the defenders with better observation of the attackers entangled in the obstacle.

[Brightblade]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

I just tried a test with pzIVH, and I cannot get it do what you claim it can do. Was there a specific model IV you've been able to do this with? The most I could do is "pull" the waypoints into the woods the following turn.

Just place the waypoints on the wire. Then everything should work fine.

It doesn´t have to do anything with a specific tank - at least it worked fine for me for some Tigers, King Tigers and Brummbärs.

[ July 27, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Brightblade ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Brightblade:

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I just tried a test with pzIVH, and I cannot get it do what you claim it can do. Was there a specific model IV you've been able to do this with? The most I could do is "pull" the waypoints into the woods the following turn.

Just place the waypoints on the wire. Then everything should work fine.

It doesn´t have to do anything with a specific tank - at least it worked fine for me for some Tigers, King Tigers and Brummbärs. </font>

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by White Phosphorus:

Does infantry's exposure go up when they are in wired woods? Wouldn't reduced exposure imply that the woods have been cleared somewhat to lay the wire, or to provide the defenders with better observation of the attackers entangled in the obstacle.

Bingo! I would have thought everybody by now would have realised that when you lay wire you turn the terrain underneath it to clear terrain. That's why your LOS improves dramatically when drawing it across wire obstructions compared with the surrounding woods, scattered trees, brush tiles etc. It's really quite simple, wire converts any terrain below it into clear except there is now a substantial movement penalty for infantry, wheeled vehicles can't cross and tracked vehicles (except halftracks) can cross but with a movement penalty and an increased chance of immobilisation compared with the normal (but converted) clear terrain underneath.

Regards

Jim R.

[Brightblade]

Originally posted by Walpurigs Night:

Just tried it with a brummbar . . nope . . doesn't work. I'm not talking about movement through woods. If you give a tank movement orders from clear point a to clear point b, then they move through woods just fine. But you cannot give the tank an endpoint that stops on the wire in the woods.

How did you place the barbed wire? Lengthwise?

Like this:

-----------X-----------

OOOOOOXOOOOOO

OOOOOOXOOOOOO

OOOOOOXOOOOOO

OOOOOOXOOOOOO

-----------X-----------

X: Barbed Wire

O: Trees

The barbed wire lane has to start in passable terrain and to end in passable terrain.

You can also place the barbed wire across, but then you need four or five of them for one square of woods.

If you did all that, I don´t know why it doesn´t work for you.

Did you try to place a waypoint right at the beginning of the wire lane? So your tanks should move on the barbed wire like on a brigde and stop whereever you like (on the wire).

[ July 28, 2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Brightblade ]

[Nidan1]

While we are on the subject Some intersting facts.

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

Bingo! I would have thought everybody by now would have realised that when you lay wire you turn the terrain underneath it to clear terrain. That's why your LOS improves dramatically when drawing it across wire obstructions compared with the surrounding woods, scattered trees, brush tiles etc. It's really quite simple, wire converts any terrain below it into clear except there is now a substantial movement penalty for infantry, wheeled vehicles can't cross and tracked vehicles (except halftracks) can cross but with a movement penalty and an increased chance of immobilisation compared with the normal (but converted) clear terrain underneath.

Hello Gentlemen,

I've made a Google search for "German fortifications" and "atlantic wall" and finally found a picture which could be taken as an example for the discussion... Even if this photos shows dragoon's teeth, just mentally replace these fortifications by barbed wire lines...

In order to install this line of barbed wire, engineers had to cut all the trees to prepare the terrain ! Then, a tracked vehicle could easely pass through the forrest, gently rolling over the obstacles !

About LOS, this example perfectly demonstrate how a birbed wire or dragoon's teeth defence line increase this "value". Of course, it depends of the orientation of the observer : when he's exactly in the axis, he could see very far away, until the next tree zone or a curve of the defence line.

I didn't make a search for the russian/east german line of fortifications along the "iron curtain", in order to find a more appropriate picture. But surelly these kind of obstacles existed.

Best regards.

[IntelWeenie]

To me, there's two kinds of wire entanglements:

1) Permanent ones constructed (usually be engineers) as part of a fortification.

2) Field expedient wire which is laid by a unit for temporary local security.

I've done the 2nd more times that I care to remember in terrain from desert (NTC) to dense forest (several army posts). Wire (I'm talking about triple-strand concertina) CAN be laid in forest without removing underbrush or trees. It's just really hard. Many times, that's the way it's usually done since removal of such growth can give away your position. Note that removal of undergrowth would not make it any easier for vehicles to get around trees, which is what's at issue here.

Pictures I've seen of permanent wire entaglements usually were cleared. I think this is because it made it easier to observe the wire to detect infiltrators and it also makes fixing the wire easier when it breaks or something falls on it.

I think this wire-clear-terrain thing should be considered a bug, albeit a minor one.

[Big Poppa Pump]

Anyone try to see if this will allow a AFV into a building?

Would try it myself but can't right now.

[Brightblade]

Originally posted by Big Poppa Pump:

Anyone try to see if this will allow a AFV into a building?

No, doesn´t work. No barbed wire allowed in buildings (at least I couldn´t place any), not even in factories; so no full tracked vehicle can move on the wire into the building.

However it works for rubble of course, like for any otherwise impassable terrain.

[ July 28, 2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Brightblade ]

[tooz]

Face it, it's a bug. I doubt BFC designers spent time ruminating about all of these possibilities. "let's see, if we put barbed wire here in the woods, then this accurately depicts..." Nope, I'm certain this ISN'T the case. It's a bug, but the bug doesn't BUG me.

[lcm1947]

Well let's face it bug or no bug. It's in the game so as long as everybody knows it why not be able to use it. I mean if both players can use it where's the harm or cheating? Any barbed wire I ever saw was used to slow the enemy down not to stop them and you are slowing them down so you can shoot them and so the areas are cleared and open so you have a clear fire lane. I mean what's the point in placing wire if it's out in the middle of nowhere and you don't have soldiers covering it.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Bogdan:

Hello Gentlemen,

I've made a Google search for "German fortifications" and "atlantic wall" and finally found a picture which could be taken as an example for the discussion... Even if this photos shows dragoon's teeth, just mentally replace these fortifications by barbed wire lines...

In order to install this line of barbed wire, engineers had to cut all the trees to prepare the terrain! Then, a tracked vehicle could easely pass through the forrest, gently rolling over the obstacles !

I didn't make a search for the russian/east german line of fortifications along the "iron curtain", in order to find a more appropriate picture. But surelly these kind of obstacles existed.

Best regards.

That pic seems rather "new" to me, the form of the LOS rather a sightseeing thing than for combat. The foliage 50 years after the war is no indication for wha tit was during the war.

When I was young there were some of these depicted "Panzersperren" near my hometown - but all were completely grown with underbrush (but no tall trees). Given the sparse ground on and between the solid bases of these concrete blocks, I doubt anything really big (like the trees on the pic) grew on them in only 4 years.

Now if these obstacles on the pic were wire, and a modern tank can travel across 3 rows of wire - how far can a WW2-tank travel along a line of barbed wire? I guess it won't make the distance of one tile - except if there is an additional road along the wire which should be depicted by the road in forest tile, not wire in forest.

BTW: The iron curtain was not a military defense -giving away the position was not a problem, as you had watchtowers and a 100m wirde clearing all along them. It was just to have LOS from the towers.

Gruß

Joachim