major disaster Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I performed a search and didn't find anything. Barbed wire allows armour to cross normally unpassable terrain. I laid some barb wire across some woods end to end (each barb wire section touched the ajoining one) with some wire sticking out on an "open" ground tile. I was then able to move my armour across the woods. It appears the Barb wire (which can be crossed normally by vehicles) overides the ground tiles attributes underneath. Is this meant to happen? BFC please fix or do sumfink. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by major disaster: I laid some barb wire across some woods end to end (each barb wire section touched the ajoining one) with some wire sticking out on an "open" ground tile.Just for the record, you're positive it was woods and not scattered trees? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 It is a know game mechanic aspect. The defender can make terrain passable for vehicles (and modify LOS in the case of wire) by placing trenches or barbed wire across it. I think it is realistic, if the defender has engineer support to build the stuff they would also be able to remove some wood to make a vehicle passage. I used this in a PBEM to trick my opponent into believing I had armor when I did not ("That sneaky bastard built a lane through that woods and his StuGs will come out of it and hit my flank"). The plan was to make him guard the exit and have the overwatch die from excessive boredom. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAsta_KFC Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Okay guys, after reading this post I made a test myself. It seems that it IS the case. I don't have screenshots at the moment but a test is simple. I chose a heavily forrested, flat field, some barbed wire and a tiger. Just lay the barbed wire longways, preferably in thickness of 2's to make a thicker 'road'. Now place the tank at the edge of the 'bridge' and give it an order to move to other end, not directly on the woods. The TACAI path finding will recognise barbed wire as usable terrain and the tank will happily roll across. ver 1.04 anyone? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
major disaster Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Woods are unpassable for a reason. Simply putting some metal wire down, which can bend...tanks can't, should not change the tiles base behaviour. It can be crucial if the defender wants to ensure a particular route is unpassable using road blocks and such. One mistake with the wire and it is all undone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 As said above, a disagree. If the defender has the manpower or the engineers to lay long lines of wire or dig a trench they can also make woods passable. Remember we are talking tanks here, they can go through the underbrush on their own, they can go over reasobaly flat stumps (with the tracks) and that an army blow the trees up, they are not using swiss army knifes. And they can move earth and build wooden lanes. If anything BFC should make a difference between tracked and wheeled vehicles (like TacOps does). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
major disaster Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Double post DOH [ July 27, 2003, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: major disaster ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Well, then... ... don't make the mistake to make your own blocking terrain passable 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: As said above, a disagree. If the defender has the manpower or the engineers to lay long lines of wire or dig a trench they can also make woods passable. Yeah, ok sure . . I wouldn't mind if you could purchase a special fortification "unit" to clear trees or make them passable or whatever, but I highly doubt it was Charles' intention that barbed wire be used for this. That's er . . . quite a bargain item at that whopping 5 points. [ July 27, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 But do you buy barbed wire or a barbwired position? I would imagine an area barbwired would be cleared to prevent the enemy sneaking in with wirecutters and provide a clear field of fire. It might not be designed as a feauture but I think it's realistic enough to sidestep the 'bug' label. That's my two Eurocents. No refunds! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 If you're on the attack, will your setup zone really allow you to lay barbed wire fire forward enough to make this "feature" useful? If you're on the defence, wouldn't it help the enemy as much as you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAsta_KFC Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I do believe that it is an unintended bug, however since it seems to benefit the attacker more than the defender, then it doesn't require priority fixing. I mean, if you want the attack to stop abusing this attribute, just don't lay barbed wire in the way which the tanks could make use of it. If the attacker couldlay barbed wire, then that would be a different matter altogether.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightblade Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: If you're on the attack, will your setup zone really allow you to lay barbed wire fire forward enough to make this "feature" useful? If you're on the defence, wouldn't it help the enemy as much as you? Aside from some scenarios or operations maybe, the attacker won´t have any barbed wire at all. So this is virtually only important for the defender. You are right of course, where tanks from one side may pass, enemy tanks also may come through. But that provides that the enemy KNOWS that there is a way to pass. By this bug (?) the defender can gain from a very high amount of surprise as he can counterattack from a direction which was thought safe by the attacker. BTW, you need only one piece of barbed wire for 20m of impassable terrain. And the tanks are quite fast on it. In my quicktest a King Tiger passed 20m of barbwire placed lengthwise in some woods in about 30sec (with Move order). Probably it is a bug, but on the other hand it adds some more reality. Just as redwolf said, a defender who can dig in for defense can also make some parts of impassable terrain passable. However, in RL tanks don´t very much like to cross barbed wire. It entwines around the tracks and wheels and when there is enough of it (for modern tanks three barb wire barriers are assumed to be enough), it will immobilize the tank. Oh, trenches can be used for the same purpose, only the tanks are MUCH slower (less than 5m in 1min). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
major disaster Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 As a defender I can make a trail into a forest that allows my armour to surprise unsuspecting attacking forces. Although certainly not unrealistic some might consider this to be gamey as movement is usually restricted in woods/pine forest terrain and so players that do not know about this loop hole will feel cheated. Of course if everyone knows then it is probably not an issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 so if i'm reading this right, you could place barbed wire in woods or other normally impassable terrain, so that you could set up tanks there at the beginning of the game.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Boy can I just hear all the hollering "Gamey" out there by those not aware of this little - trick. Sounds kind of intereting though and I may very well use it but will inform my partner that it's possible and to be aware of it. If nothing else it'll throw the defenders plans off or at least make him take this "bug" into consideration. I subscripe to redwolf's logic and while maybe a bug it still adds another dimension to the game so what the heck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I don't agree with the "engineering clearing the way in the woods" line of thought. Why would a defender make a path for enemy armor to advance through while also placing wire to halt infantry? Personally, I think it is a bug and should be addressed, though I would hazard to say that this has probably not been an issue for many of you. Would be nice to have it addressed in a final patch though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Pollock Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 From p.79 of the CMBB rulebook: "Impassable Terrain: ...Crossing forests might be possible given ample time and caution and proper support by engineering units..." ...which seems to support the view that it represents engineered pathways. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anything on pp. 60-62 (Fortifications) telling you that trenches and wire stamp out the Impassable Terrain restrictions from p. 79; I certainly would've liked to have seen that in the rulebook. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 This is obviously a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by Brent Pollock: From p.79 of the CMBB rulebook: "Impassable Terrain: ...Crossing forests might be possible given ample time and caution and proper support by engineering units..." ...which seems to support the view that it represents engineered pathways. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anything on pp. 60-62 (Fortifications) telling you that trenches and wire stamp out the Impassable Terrain restrictions from p. 79; I certainly would've liked to have seen that in the rulebook. You didn't include the rest of the passage which clearly states: "...and therefore the possibility for vehicles to traverse any woods heavier than "scattered trees" has been exclueded for the sake of realism." It further states that it may be possible with engineering to allow vehicles to pass, but it is out of the scope of an average CM battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Bullethead noticed this, but had a very good point--if you are laying barbed wire, you have to clear trees, undergrowth, etc. It wants to snag on everything to begin with and there was no way in hell to put it up in a forest. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eichenbaum Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by wwb_99: Bullethead noticed this, but had a very good point--if you are laying barbed wire, you have to clear trees, undergrowth, etc. It wants to snag on everything to begin with and there was no way in hell to put it up in a forest. WWB I don't agree. Barbed wire is to hold off infantry from passing through. In CMBB you can see a frame for holding the wire but that wasn't always used. Using the trees as frames is quit the same. Why do you need to cut the forest first ? Eichenbaum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 You could use the same logic for barbed wire in rubble, or barbed wire in rough terrain. Why should a tank be able to pass through rough terrain when there's barbed wire laid in it? This does strike me as a bug, although not a major one - it's more of a bugette or a bugola. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 You can argue as many esoteric historical possibilities/theories as you like, but if this were the intention of the designers, you would be able to give movement orders to your armor to stop somewhere in the woods on the wire. You cannot, you can only move through it. This is a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightblade Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by Walpurgis Night: You can argue as many esoteric historical possibilities/theories as you like, but if this were the intention of the designers, you would be able to give movement orders to your armor to stop somewhere in the woods on the wire. You cannot, you can only move through it. It very likely is a bug. I think nobody really doubts that. But what is the meaning of your posting? If I move armor on wire lanes through woods or other impassable terrain, I can of course order them to stop them in the middle of it. Did I get something wrong? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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