It's a boat made of wood and canvas, it's NOT a tank!!!!

[Juardis]

{edit: Contrary to what was originally stated by that dumbass Juardis (preserved for all it's glory here), there is NO paddling in CMBB assault boats. 2hp motors are what you get. So read on and mock me later. /edit}

Yes yes, try it sometime. Have a squad paddle a boat onto land. Then try getting that boat back into the water. Or have the boat facing the shore while on the land and try to load a squad on it. Many many problems with this.

First, you cannot reverse the boat. Excuse me?! Paddle BACKWARDS!!!! Perhaps that technique did not come along until Korea, or Vietnam? Or if your squad is on land already, how about they PICK IT UP and put it into the water?!

Second, since you cannot reverse the boat, it has to rotate 180 degrees to go in the opposite direction. Ever try that while in the water? It should take a minute maybe. How about on land? Maybe a little more than a minute since you have to rotate it then everyone needs to embark. Except it takes 3 MINUTES to ROTATE 90 degrees!!!! Excuse me part deux? WTH are they doing that it would take that long to rotate 90 degrees?!?! Especially on land. Here's an idea...Get out, pick the boat up, and turn the damn thing around. Obviously everybody walking backwards is not an option since you cannot reverse the boat, so they must have to pick it up. It's like the game thinks all the guys are in the boat trying to turn the boat around, even while on land. Ok, if that is the case, then how the hell does it even rotate at all??!?! No amount of paddling while on land will move a fully laden african assault boat.

Part of the problem I think is to move a boat across the land requires your guys be embarked on it, which of course assumes they're paddling. It's WOOD and CANVAS damnit, not 75mm thickness armor, pick it up and move it!!! (suggestion: Speed dependent on number of men moving with a minimum number required to move it).

BTS, please fix or do somefink!!!

[ July 01, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Juardis ]

[Holman]

Geez--haven't you ever seen a war movie? They're paddling with their rifle butts! Surely you can't expect a squad of guys sitting in a boat on land to turn it more than 90 degrees in three minutes using just rifle butts?? Try it yourself.

This reminds me of the running with machineguns discussion. How sad. Have you ever tried to run with a tripod machine gun using just a rifle butt?? I didn't *think* so. [smirk]

[-Havermeyer-]

Yeah! And where's the sound file:

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace!"

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace!"

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace!"

[Juardis]

good point martyr.

and here I thought it was because they were modeling a fully laden european assault boat by mistake.

[Private Bluebottle]

Except of course, most nations had boats which either had real paddles or came equipped with outboard motors.

[Panzertruppe]

" What did you expect destroyers"! ( Robert Redford in "A Bridge To Far" when he saw the boats his men had to use to cross the river).

[Juardis]

It appears that it IS a freaking destroyer. Assault boats in CMBB weigh 2000 lbm (1 MT) and come equipped with a 2 hp engine. The motor explains why no one gets tired while in an assault boat. So how a 2 man mortar team can even move one at all is a mystery. But surely a 12 man team could manage it faster than what the game models now.

I guess A Bridge Too Far is what I envisioned, not a fishing boat.

[ July 01, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Juardis ]

[Private Bluebottle]

2000lb? What the hell is it made of? The standard British assault was folding canvas. Most of the pictures I've seen of them show only four men lifting them. Most of the pictures of German assault boats appear to indicate they were inflatable, rubberised canvas (although I must admit I'm no authority on German engineering equipment, more's the pity), they weigh a lot less than 2,000lb.

[Engel]

If the info on this page is accurate, they should weigh a lot less, unless the CMBB assault boat is made of steel. They also should have crews, since assault boats were usually operated by engineers.

[ July 02, 2003, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Engel ]

[Sergei]

If it's made of canvas, then it's not an ASSAULT boat. Call it a burial coffin which is such a thing's only use in combat. Or maybe it was originally the (in)famous Kitchen Sink M1E, but they dropped part of the designation and labeled it as "Sink Me". The assault boats Finns had at least were made of metal and they were fast, oh yeah and deadly lookin'. Watch Unknown Soldier to know what I mean.

[Barleyman]

I think BFC has in mind the 2nd last episode of Band of Brothers. The guys crossed the river by pulling themselves over with a rope.. Necessarily kinda slow business!

[Michael Emrys]

German Infantry and Assault Engineer Equipment 1939-1945 by Chris Ellis lists several types that might be considered assualt boats, none of which exactly compare with what BFC describes. There are two inflatable rubber boats that are either paddled or towed (by ropes stretched across the water or by powered boats).

The smaller one, the Kleine Flossack 35 normally has a crew of two and one passenger, though I see a photo of one being towed with five passengers. It is rated with a capacity of 300 kg. but no weight for the boat itself is provided.

The larger one, the Grosse Flossack 34, had a rated capacity of 2.75 tons and there is a photo of one with a 37mm Pak on board.

But I think the one we are interested in is the Sturmboot 39. This is a wooden boat powered by a 4 cylinder 12hp engine. It could carry seven men plus a crew of two, and had a maximum speed of 15 knots. Again no weight is given, but it is shown being loaded onto a trailer, three to a trailer.

Michael

[Barleyman]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

But I think the one we are interested in is the Sturmboot 39. This is a wooden boat powered by a 4 cylinder 12hp engine.

Ooh, I get all tingly thinking about this beast splashing water on the faces of BFC crew enjoying rum daiquiris while "researching" for CMAK ..

Seriously, the assault boats are a joke and they should be replaced. Since 1.03 is the final patch, that's not going to happen. Not officially anyways. Any gentlemen any good with a spot of hex editing?

[Engel]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Sturmboot 39. This is a wooden boat powered by a 4 cylinder 12hp engine.

I think the boat listed simply as "assault boat" in the link I provided above is Sturmboot 39. The page gives it a weight of 475 pounds.

[Lumbergh]

Assault Boat Grogs.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Martyr:

Geez--haven't you ever seen a war movie? They're paddling with their rifle butts! Surely you can't expect a squad of guys sitting in a boat on land to turn it more than 90 degrees in three minutes using just rifle butts?? Try it yourself.

[smirk]

Except that according the the unit info, the boats in the CMBB are powered by 2 hp engines. If that's the case, how come a boat can't move without a unit in it? Is the one man boat crew not enough to drive an outboard motor? Yet a sniper is a big enough unit to paddle the boat?

There are serious flaws in the assault boats in CM and should be used as little as possible and shouldn't be used at all for tournament play (hint hint - whoever designed the Rugged Defense scenario)

[demoss]

There are serious flaws in the assault boats in CM and should be used as little as possible and shouldn't be used at all for tournament play (hint hint - whoever designed the Rugged Defense scenario)

It's not really a problem there because both sides suffer equally, though. Just because something is moderately broken doesn't mean it can't be used fairly.

[Wicky]

"We went across in our canvas and wood assault boats. They had had a wooden bottom, canvas sides with a wooden frame at the top. You sort of lifted them up, pushed two or three struts into position to keep them rigid, just got in and paddled across. They took about six men. We got across a canal which was about ten feet deep." Corporal Keneth Lovell, 16th Durham Light Infantry

"The boats were somewhat difficult to manoeuvre and after the usual problems of going round in circles which one tended to do, we all got across." Signaller Ronald Elliott, 16th Durham Light Infantry

The Heat of Battle, The Italian Campaign by Peter Hart

[Engel]

Originally posted by Wicky:

"The boats were somewhat difficult to manoeuvre and after the usual problems of going round in circles

The Germans (and the Finns, for that matter; don't know about the Soviets) had somewhat better assault boats that were quite a lot more manouverable than described in that quote.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by demoss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> There are serious flaws in the assault boats in CM and should be used as little as possible and shouldn't be used at all for tournament play (hint hint - whoever designed the Rugged Defense scenario)

It's not really a problem there because both sides suffer equally, though. Just because something is moderately broken doesn't mean it can't be used fairly. </font>

[Snarker]

Originally posted by Private Bluebottle:

2000lb? What the hell is it made of?

Concrete. Very hollow concrete. That's why it floats, but you can't turn it on land.

Most of the pictures of German assault boats appear to indicate they were inflatable, rubberised canvas (although I must admit I'm no authority on German engineering equipment, more's the pity), they weigh a lot less than 2,000lb.

No, it's rubber-coated very hollow concrete. Germans always went the extra mile in QC for their equipment.

[-E]

Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

Yeah! And where's the sound file:

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace!"

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace!"

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace!"

Rofl! Let's go Butch!

[Derfel]

OK, since we're on the topic....

What ELSE floats, besides a witch... er... assault boat...

-Derfel

[jKMkIII]

I have used different kind of boats in real life and still can't figure out what kind of boat CM boats are trying to represent.

2hp motor and required passenger to move doesn't really mix.

Such horrible turn rates on ground doesn't make sense. Any similiar sized boat I can think of are actually quite quick to turn if boat is in water and people turning are outside either in water or on shore if shore is too deep.

And only boat I wouldn't move backwards is sailing boat, every motor I have seen can also reverse and if passengers have to paddle then it shouldn't be problem either.

And about RD tournament scenario. When I first saw scenario I thought what an interesting looking scenario, now I don't have very positive view of it. Unfortunately using game element that is seriously flawed makes scenario also seriously flawed. I for example lost battle already in setup, if would have knewn how badly boats are modeled I would have chosen very different strategy.

[von Lucke]

Tell me a'boat' it!

I've been trying to use an assault boat as a ferry (wasting a flamethrower team as crew) in that scenario, and as of turn 25, I've managed to move exactly one squad across a 20m stetch of water, and bring the boat back to the other shore. What a waste of time.

Fuhgedabowdit!