Snipers?

[Happydog]

Wanted to create some scenarios in Stalingrad inspired by the sotries of Zaitsev. Anyone know of any sniper mod or any suggestions on how to create snipers in the game?

[YankeeDog]

The kind of sniper action you're talking about is really kind of below CM's level - ideally, you'd be better off with a squad or platoon level game, not a company/battalion level game like CM.

I suppose, though, you could use Veteran or better sharpshooters to simulate autonomous snipers. The problem here is that CM sharpshooters often will not fire at enemy closer than 200m - they don't like to risk exposing themselves. This is usually fine, but in the urban sniper duels in Stalingrad, it was not uncommon for sniper to score kills and escape even when taking shots from quite close ranges. It's kind of a special case.

I dunno. IIRC, there are some minor nation (Romanian?) Tank Hunter units where at least one of the men is armed with a rifle. There are also 2-man section HQ units here and there. The problem is, non-sharpshooter 2-man units won't simulate the lethality of a sniper at range very well.

My feeling is that you're best off with high experience level sharpshooters. Just don't expect miracles.

Cheers,

YD

[Mercury]

I've tried this kind of scenario - it just doesn't work.

Opposing snipers would not fire at each other, even when standing right next to each other.

Maybe try one side having snipers, picking off an advancing enemy platoon or something, that might work.

[Other Means]

have you tried giving them 180o maximum range covered arcs to encorage them to fire? not saying it'd work but it may.

[Hans]

I've tried also to create a reasonable scenario using snipers and wasn't able to come up with anything that the AI could do much with.

Fairly interesting for an IP/PBEM - but one problem is the severe ammo limitation. 15 rounds a fight does not make.

I also tried using a German Crack 7.9 ATR as a sniper but ever that doesn't play out too well in CMBB.

But ignore us naysayers and give it try.

[Zarquon]

I've recently built a mini-scenario with two green sharpshooters duelling in a small village, 10 turns, and played both sides. They started in full sight of each other, ~100m apart, but didn't fire their rifles once, instead they shot at each other with their abstracted secondary arms (pistols, foul language etc.). It had no effect at that range, of course.

One of them then advanced slowly, the other one took a morale hit and retreated to a small house. No 1 followed, catched up with him and pinned him. He spent the remaining 7 turns firing his pistol at him at a range of one or two meters. At the end of that nerve-racking game, No 2 was panicked. The end.

Maybe you could get different results with crack experience, but I doubt it.

[86smopuim]

another problem if you want dueling snipers,

is that at range that snipers are willing to fire ?100m-200m+?, they pretty much can't be spotted.

So you will end up with both snipers just sitting there staring into woods 200+m away.

You'd need a toon to try to flush the opponents sniper out.

[ November 09, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: 86smopuim ]

[MikeyD]

I tried a sniper scenario once. I teamed a crack sharpshooter with an infantry platoon commander who has high stealth rating and no ammo (I considered his mission to be spotter). Oh yeh, I gave 'em a Kubelwagen and driver too. His mission was infiltrate and kill the Battalion commander on the other side of the map. Absolutely pointless trying to get the AI to play the sniper side of course. I don't know if I'd say the scenario was a success but it was fun trying to sneak him up to within firing range of the Battalion CO location.

In order to keep the AI from auto-cease-firing due to the imbalance of forces I had to dig-in a German tank out of the way at an obscure corner of the map.

[ November 10, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[JasonC]

It is not a FPS. These ideas are not the way to see what snipers can do, anyway.

Instead try a small 500 vs 400 point fight with one good sharpshooter on each side, and various, asymmetric weapons and advantages for each side. That gives something with critical little events that can be turned by a single well placed shot, at the right time.

E.g. Stalingrad era, Germans defend 1 small flag (probe-ish depth) and have (regular except as noted) -

1 veteran Panzer III L

2 PSW 223 light radio car (late)

1 Jager platoon

2 HMG-34

1 Crack sharpshooter

MGs have to hold the streets, from buildings and from the light armor - because the Russians will have far more men.

Russians attack with (again regular except as noted) -

1 T-34 (1943 model, early)

2 green Rifle B platoons

1 regimental pioneer platoon

1 veteran flamethrower

1 Maxim MG

1 PTRD ATR

1 veteran sharpshooter

Now all of the sudden instead of nothing to shoot at, or just a pointless ordinary infantry platoon, there are critical teams trying to accomplish critical objectives.

- The Russian pioneers try to get close enough to use their demo charges or get their flamethrower across the street from a key building. But pinned men don't throw DCs.

- The T-34 and Pz III L have a duel at some point. But one loses its TC just before.

- The Russian ATR zeros one of the armored cars. But is zeroed in turn by the German sniper.

- A critical street crossing is denied by an enemy HMG. But in the one minute that counts, they are on the floor.

If at some point in all of the above, one side's sniper leaves his previous building to get to a better vantage point, then perhaps the enemy sniper catches him moving. But the first has a reason to move - to get a shot on the key MGs, to button the enemy tank, to get away from enemy infantry before it reaches the building right across the street, etc.

Small enough battles can turn on what one team does at a critical moment. Varied enough types present, needed to counter specific enemy methods, also make single accomplishments more important. When both are the case, one bullet at the right time can turn a battle. That is what snipers are for.

[Demonize666]

Originally posted by Hans:

Fairly interesting for an IP/PBEM - but one problem is the severe ammo limitation. 15 rounds a fight does not make.

I also tried using a German Crack 7.9 ATR as a sniper but ever that doesn't play out too well in CMBB.

Thats a point: why is it that AT gunners get fully kitted out with average of 80rnds tungsten ammo, enough to go taking pot-shots all day, yet the sharpshooters, with their big heavy & cumbersome 7.62mm rounds, far too large a bullet to take more than 15rnds into battle (Oooh, its too heavy, the weight in my backpack is killing me, 15 rnds is too much weight, etc, etc

[Zarquon]

Originally posted by Demonize666:

Thats a point: why is it that AT gunners get fully kitted out with average of 80rnds tungsten ammo, enough to go taking pot-shots all day, yet the sharpshooters, with their big heavy & cumbersome 7.62mm rounds, far too large a bullet to take more than 15rnds into battle (Oooh, its too heavy, the weight in my backpack is killing me, 15 rnds is too much weight, etc, etc

It's purely a game balance issue, I think. The game forces players to use snipers the way JasonC just pointed out. They are quite expensive and you can't waste a shot if 10 is all you've got. So you have to pick your targets carefully. A sniper could carry 50 rounds but then they would nearly dominate the battlefield.

[hoolaman]

If you ever notice how many people a sniper can kill with one shot, you would see that the one shot is an abstraction of several shots, like a "burst" of sniper fire.

[FM Paul Heinrik]

I've tried to use sharpshooters (which I've found out are NOT snipers) and have not had success.

For example, I have sharpshooter hiding in woods 300m away an unbutton tank comes strolling by, sharpshooter takes aim and misses. Tank buttons up, I wait to see if it unbuttons again, mortar rds or machine gun fire suppress and pins my guy.

If you choose to use sharpshooters should you pick more than 1? Do you get more milage out of a Hvy Mg or mortor crew vs a sharpshooter?

[flamingknives]

Quality counts with sharpshooters when gunning for TCs. They are excellent in adding suppression, so are at their best working in concert with other forces.

Alternatively, a sneaky trick is to use the secondary fire. If you can locate an area of cover off the main axis of advance, but close to it, the sharpshooter will fire his secondary weapon on the enemy. As this is fire coming from an unknown source, it has tremendous effect on morale and can really slow the enemy advance down. Almost as importantly, your sharpshooter can be within 20m of the enemy and remain invisible.