RSColonel_131st Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 Anyone here played "Der Manstein kommt" by Franko? I just tried it from the german side during the last few days. The german mission is to advance into a village, take a bridge (one flag), and then hold the village (three more flags). After battle 5 all my units were finally routed. Looked like this: Seems to me the russians have like 600 infantry in total, compared to the germans 400. Each side lost about 25 vehicles, but on german side that inlcudes only 8 tanks - from a total of 9. The remaining stuff is halftracks and trucks mostly. On the russian side it means about 20 tanks lost, including a few KV-1s. And they still had more tanks. So, the russians have like 24 tanks to counter the german 9 - have more guns, have more infantry, and are in the DEFENDERS role? I admire anyone who takes the time to design a scenario, and the map is very lovely made, but how did Franko expect anyone to win this? Has anyone actually managed? Even with the fact that I killed a lot more of their infantry, killed a lot more of their tanks, I still lost big. I thought the usual rule was that attackers should enjoy numerical superiority over the defenders, otherwise the attack is pointless. Being outnumbered AND being on the attack certainly is not an option. [ July 02, 2005, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: RSColonel_131st ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Haven't played this one, but as a general rule of thumb: If the scenario was made by Franko, then get ready for some pain. He tends to make scenarios rather desperate for whomever side it is designed for, at least from my experience. In this case, desperate for the Axis. Not saying it is impossible, just, rather "challenging". Franko has a bit of a cult following here. It seems lots of folks like to feel the pain: New MEGA OP If I want to win, I play a QB. If I want to feel what it was really like, I play a scenario made from one of the number of designers and design teams that we are so fortunate to have (Franko is one of them). It really helps to keep things in persepctive. Originally posted by RSColonel_131st: I thought the usual rule was that attackers should enjoy numerical superiority over the defenders, otherwise the attack is pointless. Being outnumbered AND being on the attack certainly is not an option. Usual rule, numerical superiority is always preferred,sure. The optimal situation? Of course! Always doable, no. Reality tends to get in the way of ideality more often than not. In this case of this scenario, desperate situations call for desperate measures. What I love about this game is it makes me dig into the history behind why the scenarios take place. The more I learn about WHY the scenario took place in history really adds to the enjoyment for me. Wining or losing at that poing it rather moot. I LEARNED something. Have fun! [ July 02, 2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: leakyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painfbat Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 This all sounds very HISTORICAL to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 I make that 800 Russian soldiers, but nevermind. What were the relative qualities? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 I believe this scenario is based on the fighting during Operation Winter Storm - the German attempt to relieve the encircled 6th Army. The "desperation" might be a result of the Soviets' vast numerical superiority, awful weather and Hitler's refusal to allow the 6th Army to break-out toward the relief forces. Antony Beevor's 'Stalingrad' recounts this phase of operations at length. So, I would say that you don't suck, but neither is the scenario "unbalanced". It's just historically accurate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 There are some parameters that can affect the final scores. Did you get the final scores? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Originally posted by RSColonel_131st: Do I suck or is this scenario unbalanced?These options are mutually exclusive? Originally posted by RSColonel_131st: I thought the usual rule was that attackers should enjoy numerical superiority over the defenders, otherwise the attack is pointless. Being outnumbered AND being on the attack certainly is not an option. For certainty there have been numerous cases where the attacker was inferior in numbers but superior in actual fighting capability. If there is inferiority or rough equality in numbers and firepower, then it becomes harder, and against an equal enemy commander impossible - but not vs. the AI, if you know what you are doing. But concerning the operation we are talking about, I had a look at the forces in it. The thing is, for the first three battles Soviets have 0 tanks. Then they get 'em big time in battles #4 and #6. Which means, to win you have to advance to the village during those first 60 turns wiping out or passing by the resistance on the way, set up for defense and hold it against an onslaught. The briefing does lightly hint to this way, but if you misinterpreted that, then your failure is understandable. Still doesn't mean that you couldn't suck, though. Btw. this scheme - attack followed by a fierce counter-attack - is common to many operations. My suggestions to scenario designers would be, though, to give better guidance to the player as to what he should be reaching at which stage - eg. "ORDERS: 1) advance along the highway wiping out any pockets of resistance, 2) secure the primary target by battle #3, 3) deploy for defense and await new orders." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Originally posted by flamingknives: I make that 800 Russian soldiers, but nevermind.Don't add up overall casualties and KIA. Although, in operations these numbers don't seem to be very reliable all the time (sometimes KIA can be higher than the OVERALL casualties) - possibly because part of the wounded men return to combat or something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSColonel_131st Posted July 3, 2005 Author Share Posted July 3, 2005 Originally posted by Sergei: But concerning the operation we are talking about, I had a look at the forces in it. The thing is, for the first three battles Soviets have 0 tanks. Then they get 'em big time in battles #4 and #6. Which means, to win you have to advance to the village during those first 60 turns wiping out or passing by the resistance on the way, set up for defense and hold it against an onslaught. The briefing does lightly hint to this way, but if you misinterpreted that, then your failure is understandable.This is what I expected. Though it's a bit scary - the sovjets right now must have about 25 tanks in play, and I haven't reached battle six yet. I really don't have the slightest clue how one should hold a defense position with just 9 PzIII against about 30 equally armored and armored russian tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Originally posted by RSColonel_131st: I really don't have the slightest clue how one should hold a defense position with just 9 PzIII against about 30 equally armored and armored russian tanks. Chances are you probably won't, but if by some miracle you do then you will have earned the right to brag, something few have done when playing the underdog side of a Franko Op or scenario. You want to feel pain, load up "Tank warning" and play as the Germans. You will probably think it's no big deal after the first battle, but after that... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Originally posted by RSColonel_131st: I really don't have the slightest clue how one should hold a defense position with just 9 PzIII against about 30 equally armored and armored russian tanks. Chances are you probably won't, but if by some miracle you do then you will have earned the right to brag, something few have done when playing the underdog side of a Franko Op or scenario. You want to feel pain, load up "Tank warning" and play as the Germans. You will probably think it's no big deal after the first battle, but after that... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmoney Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 I think the problem is, is that your game has all that weird writing. I couldn’t understand a word. But seriously I just played that op and was getting stomped. So I fagged out and played as the soviets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoffel Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Where can I find this operation????? I am curious now,but couldnt find it in the depot................. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 No no Stoffel, you heard the man. He sucks and it 'aint for suckers... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John N Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Stoffel I think it is part of the Stalingrad pack at Boots and tracks Have fun, it really is a very good Op. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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