Taking Prisoners

[Krautman]

Do you think this feature is maybe, to use some specific guy's favourite term, undermodeled? The only people i ever seem to take as prisoners during the course of the battle are single remaining HMG crewmen or, occasionally, a vehicle crew. If you imagine sitting in a trench, then enduring a two-hours arty barrage, then, almost deaf, spotting advancing enemy tanks, and then some enemy infantry appears 50m to your flank- i'd be the first one to raise my hands. Yet in CM dug-in infantry, even when completely supressed by artillery fire, will - as it seems to me -rarely ever surrender to advancing enemy infantry.

[Jim1954]

Only time I seem to do that is the result of an infantry assault on suppressed units. I did capture a PF in the CMAK demo by driving a Stuart and a Greyhound to within about 50m of the building it was in.

[chiavarm]

I have captured as many as 35 against AI. they were crews and units but All were pretty well depleted in numbers.

[Glider]

Just a few days ago an untouched veteran Panzergrenadier 9-men squad surrendered to my troops. They were hiding by the road as my tank column was passing. They stood up, fired a panzerfaust, brewed up one of the Shermans and then promptly surrendered, IIRC before even a shot was fired.

[junk2drive]

Once you have prisoners, what to do.

The normal advice is to walk them off your side of the map. Do they need an escort? Or will they stay hands up unattended.

[Gpig]

Send them to the rear with one of your CREW units as escort. They usually stay hands up, unattended. But they will switch back to the other side again if they are unattended and freindly forces come near enough.

I've recently caught as many as 15 prisoners, squads and teams included. Mostly due to surrounding them. It seems that when the morale is low and there are enemy units to their rear, pouring fire into them . . . they are more likely to surrender.

Gpig

[Glider]

From my experience, it seems that having 10+ enemy tanks within 100 metres also helps

[stikkypixie]

If I recall correctly, the surrender % in CMBB is smaller than in CMAK, to reflect the brutal fighting on the Eastern front.

[Zveroboy]

^^ What he said.

It is one of the first things I noticed when I first got CMAK : tanks turn faster, there is lots of dust on the battlefield and you take a lot more prisoners than in CMBB, especially when the enemy is surrounded.

[The Colonel]

I managed to "rescue" a captured 6 man squad and repatriate them back into my army. The only problem is after they've been prisoners, they are totally unarmed.

[Folbec]

Originally posted by Zveroboy:

^^ What he said.

It is one of the first things I noticed when I first got CMAK : tanks turn faster, there is lots of dust on the battlefield and you take a lot more prisoners than in CMBB, especially when the enemy is surrounded.

The survival chance of prisonners of both sides on the east front was not that good, and this was more or less known by the men after a few months of fighting.

Many (most?) returning soviet prisonners were also shot by the NKVD, because they were "ideologically contaminated / potential spies".

Surrender was not really an option.

[Zveroboy]

Oh I agree, it definitely makes sense that the surrender rate is lower on the East Front.

Originally posted by Folbec:

Surrender was not really an option.

..yet the Germans captured around 3 million soviet pows. (Yes the bulk was during the encirclement battles of Barbarossa; by the end of july they had already taken around 800 000 pows)

I dont have figures for German pows.

[Bannon DC]

I agree, the surrender rate seems extremely low. Most units that should surrender are often annilated. And I have also captured entire squads with barely a fight. A fluke.

In Beda Fomm, I had many surrenders on both sides as the action was almost point blank for half the game. One of my captured Italian crews (a prisoner of the British AI) for some reason was moving wily-nily back to my own line. I chased him down for quite a few turns with one of my crews but they could not catch him and were exhausted. By this time, he was in the middle of the desert well within my lines but still a British POW. I finally chased him down with an armored car. I was tempted to shoot him for insubordination to end the chase.

[JasonC]

German east front MIAs are 1 million through the end of November 1944, after which records break down. Not all MIAs are PWs obviously, but most probably were. Survival rates in Russian captivity were quite low, on the order of 10% - compared to high 90s in the west. Russian PWs of the Germans are at least 3 million and I've seen figures as high as 7 million. Survival rates were low for many of the 1941 PWs, who were very ill treated in the field (unfed etc). Eventually several million were sent to Germany and treated as slave labor, not PWs. Their survival rates were low by western standards, but not quite as appalling as the field conditions right after capture in the big pockets in 1941 etc. It was not a no quarter war, plenty of men surrendered. But when they did so, they were systematically ill treated, on both sides. Which did not happen in the west, from either side. (It did with the Japanese, incidentally).

[The Colonel]

As far as the "fluke" surrenders go, I've done some experiments and a key factor seems to be the ratio of the number enemy units visible to the unit to the number of friendly units visible to the unit. This makes sense, since you'd be more likely to surrender if you believe you're out there on your own. But there's obviously many other factors and there's no way to tell for sure without the software formulas. It just seems like the times I've captured large squads without that much suppression, it's been when their within sight of huge numbers of enemy but few friendlies. Of course, if the opposite were true why would you surrender.

And I agree with Krautman, too many prisoners are the lone MG crew type. Are these guys chained to their weapon? Seems like they should be able to abandon the gun and run, instead of being immobile and helpless.

[ April 20, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: The Colonel ]

[Joachim]

Originally posted by JasonC:

But when they did so, they were systematically ill treated, on both sides. Which did not happen in the west, from either side.

Well, treatment of German PoWs might have been good in the west. But if you call them "disarmed enemy troops" they are not protected by the Geneva convention. IE you don't need to shelter or feed them. Usual results of lack of food and shelter might reduce the "high 90s" quite a bit - if you ignore that legal (?) "trick" of renaming them.

Gruß

Joachim

[securityguard]

Originally posted by Bannon DC:

I agree, the surrender rate seems extremely low. Most units that should surrender are often annilated. And I have also captured entire squads with barely a fight. A fluke.

One thing I have noticed about prisoners is that they have a tendancy to surrender when there is no direct threat. I find this highly realistic because in reality if you know you're out numbered you're not going to take chances. I've seen AT guns give up after firing two rounds and not even getting shot at and a squad put their arms up without firing a round. I rarely see guys surrender when they're under attack, and when they do they usually get wasted. In CMAK I saw a MG42 position raise their hands up then get slapped by a flame thrower team 2 seconds later, probably the most gruesome execution (probably not an execution but rather the FT team firing a little too late).

As people stated before CMBB surrenders are rare. I think the most I got was maybe a squad of guys, but its so rare. In CMAK the most I've forced surrendered was around 56 men. It was almost 1/4 the size of my opponents force! I had to put a squad on prisoner duty, I was uneasy keeping them in the rear.

[Cannon-fodder]

Try playing games at night or in poor visibility. This tends to result in many of the OPFOR units not having LOS to anything by your boys, when you are on top of them. Lots more surrenders that way in my experience.

On maps like this I often capture about 1/10 of the enemy force - not brilliant but I guess quite realistic.

I think part of the problem with surrendering in CMBB is that in real war, often surrenders happened when a squad/platoon etc. had been on the front line for too long, were fatigued, hungry and low on morale. In CMBB, units are usually 'fit' so have high morale and are unlikely to surrender. I haven't done any tests, but I wouldn't be surprised if 'weakened' units has an effect on captures.

[phil102]

Security Guard

From what I have read, particularly 'Armageddon' by Max Hastings, it seems that if troops were going to surrender, they often decided, in advance of a critical combat situation, to do it.

There is a very simple reason for this. If you have been engaged in active combat with enemy troops and those enemy troops have suffered some casualities in the exchange, it is highly likely that if you decide to suddenly stop shooting and put up a white flag that you will be summarily executed on the spot.

If however, you surrender before you have fired a shot it is likely that you will at least escape immediate death and will be herded to the rear and into captivity.

There are a very large number of recorded instances of this type of action by troops on the ground.

Just my 2 cents

[Panzer_M]

Breda Fomm I bagged a good number of brit inf with an Italian Amoured thrust..

[Panzer_M]

can you shoot prisoners in CM?

can prisoners be rescued by your own squads?

[tar]

No.

Yes.

[phil102]

You can area target prisoners with mortars etc if you want to kill them. You cant target them directly.

[George MC]

Originally posted by phil102:

Security Guard

From what I have read, particularly 'Armageddon' by Max Hastings, it seems that if troops were going to surrender, they often decided, in advance of a critical combat situation, to do it.

There is a very simple reason for this. If you have been engaged in active combat with enemy troops and those enemy troops have suffered some casualities in the exchange, it is highly likely that if you decide to suddenly stop shooting and put up a white flag that you will be summarily executed on the spot.

If however, you surrender before you have fired a shot it is likely that you will at least escape immediate death and will be herded to the rear and into captivity.

There are a very large number of recorded instances of this type of action by troops on the ground.

Just my 2 cents

Another intersting read if you would like to find out how men endure combat and the effect it has on them check out "The Face of Battle" by John Keegan.

It, quote, "examines the physical conditions of fighting, the particular emotions and behaviour generated by battle, as well as the motives that impel soldiers to stand and fight rather than run away..". Another book in the same vein worth reading is "Firing Line" by Richard Holmes which covers the same subject but in a differant manner. Both are, I would suggest essential reading for anyone looking to gain an insight into why men endure combat.

Cheers fur noo

George

[securityguard]

Originally posted by phil102:

If however, you surrender before you have fired a shot it is likely that you will at least escape immediate death and will be herded to the rear and into captivity.

There are a very large number of recorded instances of this type of action by troops on the ground.

Just my 2 cents

That's exactly what I said in my original post, so I agree with you (?)

You can kill prisoners in CM. HE will kill them, and I know flame throwers will. As for small arms they don't seem effected via morale by them but I bet you can kill them with enough of it. I also think if they're under enough fire they will attempt to run away.