Effectiveness of Canister rnds on infantry in cover . . .

[Gpig]

Yo!

I have not done any testing on this, so I cannot speak with much authority on the matter. But . . .

I was playing a scenario the other day, and I had some German Infantry ASSAULTING through a church. They were under command and perfectly healthy and fit. This was going to be thier first action of the battle. (There was a T-34 outside the church, near the end of their ASSAULT waypoint.)

A different T-34, over 100 meters away, spotted my infantry running through the church and fired a round of Cannister at them.

My ASSAULTING squad immediately went into PANIC mode. They lost 3 members of the squad and were infeffective for the rest of the battle.

My questions are;

1) Doesn't Assualt give the best cover for attacking infantry?

2) Shouldn't churches provide very good cover against Cannister rounds? (I can just imagine the pellets of a cannister round bouncing off of a church wall.)

3) Has anyone else experienced Cannister rounds being equally effective no matter what type of terrain/cover you are in?

I would have thought that a church would have saved any infantry inside from the effects of cannister.

Just kind of wondering about it. Any observations you might have on the topic would be welcome.

Thanks,

Gpig

[Redwolf]

Some for me.

From what I know about the canister shots, they couldn't penetrate a wall or a steel helmet. That means that infantry in a foxhole with its head down should be pretty safe (helmet in front, face down).

I think CMBB only take the exposure % into account and reduces the damage by it and uses no factors specific to the firing ammunition.

[dumrox]

Similar experience for me last night. I had a German squad of 10 soldiers in a small, light building. T-34 fired one C round and caused 6 casualties. Next round, another tank fired a cannister round and finished off the last 4 soldiers. I didn't dwell on it at the time, but it does seem consistant with your findings.

[akdavis]

Keep in mind that churches in Russia were usually wood, not stone like Western European churches. I imagine cannister shot would go straight through a wood wall, with lots of extra wood shrapnel as well.

Are churches heavy structures in CMBB?

[ January 24, 2003, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: akdavis ]

[SpineRipper]

I know the feeling, I lost a whole squad with one canister shot, KABOOM, blood sausage.

As for the effect of the round, I would have to say that a 75+mm shot gun round at less than 150 meters would probally be quiet effective.

My only experience would be the 40mm, m-79 round, quiet effective at close quarters, and its only a small low powerd round fired from the shoulder.

I can only have nightmares about being on the recieving end of a cannon firring a cannister round at me. 155 canister rounds were vary effective for repelling Inf durring, and clearring follage Vietnam.

well ive rambelled to much have fun.

[Thin Red Line]

I share your moods about the effect of cannister round against infantry in buildings. I'm currently playing a Stalingrad Pack scenario where a T34 eliminated a full squad (9 men) in a heavy buiding with one shot (distance 20 or 30m).

Three turns later, a full russian squad (11 men !!!) in a heavy buiding is knocked out ( eliminated ) by one cannister shot from a panzer (not identified) at 20m.

If the infantry is in open groud, or even woods, i understand the weapon lethality, but shouldn't heavy buildings stone walls be able to stop the pellets ?

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by Thin Red Line:

...Three turns later, a full russian squad (11 men !!!) in a heavy buiding is knocked out ( eliminated ) by one cannister shot from a panzer (not identified) at 20m...

Just a small clarification it wasn't one shot, it were 2 shots fired at same time (obviously by different units). Anyway in my view this doesn't weaken your thought/comments.

A canister round probably wouldn't make it inside of an heavy building... but if indeed it goes inside (through a window or a door for instances), it should be very lethal.

Of course, something should be taken into account when determining the disable in these situations, buildings in CM are abstractions, so they include rooms we don't see... In fighting situations I doubt 11 men would be packed together in a given room, so these room divisions would “tune” down the canister effect.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Thin Red Line:

I share your moods about the effect of cannister round against infantry in buildings. I'm currently playing a Stalingrad Pack scenario where a T34 eliminated a full squad (9 men) in a heavy buiding with one shot (distance 20 or 30m).

Three turns later, a full russian squad (11 men !!!) in a heavy buiding is knocked out ( eliminated ) by one cannister shot from a panzer (not identified) at 20m.

If the infantry is in open groud, or even woods, i understand the weapon lethality, but shouldn't heavy buildings stone walls be able to stop the pellets ?

In that case, I salute your opponent for being brave enough to put his tank within spitting distance of your infantry. If you had been better organised, that Panzer would have been a ball of oily smoke and charred metal.

[Andreas]

One thing to note here is that if the infantry in the buildings is not 'hiding', they are standing at openings fighting out of them. So they are actually at the windows, doors, whatever.

It sounds a bit funny to me, but this could be part of the explanation, and the other could again be the bell-curve. How many shots have people observed where cannister fired at infantry in buildings was ineffective?

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Soddball:

I salute your opponent for being brave enough to put his tank within spitting distance of your infantry. If you had been better organised, that Panzer would have been a ball of oily smoke and charred metal.

I salute my talented opponent for this action too, and i humbly recognized my defense skills are limited, but since this scenario is an urban fight in fog and snow with no more than a few yards of visibility, well planned anti-tank warfare is somehow difficult to put into practice. I predict most of the tanks vs infantry actions of this battle will be really close.

But I Will Have My Revenge In This Life or the Next

[ January 24, 2003, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: Thin Red Line ]

[Sgt.Morgue]

Having lots of real life battlefield experince with the 90mm cannister round , I feel the 76mm cannister in the game is not as destuctive and effective as it should be. Even fired at bunkers the cannister pellets entering the firing slots cause high casualities.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by Soddball:

... If you had been better organised, that Panzer would have been a ball of oily smoke and charred metal.

Sometimes we just make a fool of ourselves, isn't it?

Btw, organize :confused: Who have you been fighting? The AI?

Do you want me to let him "organize” as a personal favor to you? Do you want me to take a "tee" brake?

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

One thing to note here is that if the infantry in the buildings is not 'hiding', they are standing at openings fighting out of them. So they are actually at the windows, doors, whatever. [snips]

Aspirant Picky would like to suggest that infantrymen who have done the short course will be nowhere near the door or windows, but shooting through them from the back of the room.

Infantrymen who have done the long course will have prepared the building for defence, and be shooting through loopholes.

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by akdavis:

Keep in mind that churches in Russia were usually wood, not stone like Western European churches. I imagine cannister shot would go straight through a wood wall, with lots of extra wood shrapnel as well.

Are churches heavy structures in CMBB?

I would have thought that the load-bearing walls would be made of something thicker than half-inch MDF, though. Bear in mind that canister bullets are very poorly shaped for penetration, and are being propelled by low explosive rather than high. I suspect that musket balls would be quite a close analogy, so I wonder of there are any black powder shooters who can comment on the penetration of musket balls through wood targets?

All the best,

John.

[Holien]

Fair point John,

But the men will still be in LOS of the projectiles comming through the doors and windows and loop holes...

Occchhhh.

H

[ January 24, 2003, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Holien ]

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by Andreas:

One thing to note here is that if the infantry in the buildings is not 'hiding', they are standing at openings fighting out of them. So they are actually at the windows, doors, whatever...

Well, since you speak of it... No, in game terms, it is totally indifferent if the infantry squad is near the building walls or 10m in...

Btw, as we are at it, fire 10 area fire HE rounds into a target 10 m inside a building, that you will see very little effect... some suppression, 1 or 2 casualties.

(I'm talking about German 75L24 and 76mm Soviet guns)

It sounds a bit funny to me, but this could be part of the explanation, and the other could again be the bell-curve. How many shots have people observed where cannister fired at infantry in buildings was ineffective?

I wont say much here, as I don't have much time for “beta-testing” nor I want "gamey" tactics to be made out of this post... Just be warned; if it wasn't for the fact that AFVs carry more HE rounds then C ones, this kind of posts would more then triple

At first looks, this might look a redundant observation… it isn’t

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by Sgt.Morgue:

... Even fired at bunkers the cannister pellets entering the firing slots cause high casualities...

Yes :confused:

I think no one contradicts what you are saying in this part... well, at least I don't.

I bet you belong to the lobby of: "Artillery is too weak in CM!"

[Andreas]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

Aspirant Picky would like to suggest that infantrymen who have done the short course will be nowhere near the door or windows, but shooting through them from the back of the room.

Herr Picker would like to point out that if they can shoot out of the building, they can be shot at inside the building, unless they all use the famed Krummlauf SMG.

Fortified buildings are not really in CMBB as I understand it, and I would like to see them in the engine rewrite. Placing bunkers into buildings is a crutch that helps a bit to get there.

I am not saying that it isn't a problem. Just pointing out some other possible explanations.

[SteppenWolf]

If I look at hour 3 bed room house and imagine a canister round flying through the living room window I can imagine them spreading through all 3 bed rooms easily. Except the defenders are smart enough to close the doors

For churches, I would imagine that most churches have a lot of glass (like big windows etc.) and most of them is one big room. So I would guess for certain kind of rounds a church offers less cover then a nicely build heavy building?

SteppenWolf.

[Redwolf]

I think the case of the target in a foxhole with heads down is actually the bigger stretch here than the buildings.

[Aaron]

I had an entire platoon assualting some rubble which contained one guy manning a HMG. A StuG was hanging back and decided to fire canister at the one russian. His canister shot went through my assaulting platoon (now in the open) and totally decimated it!

Aaron

[YankeeDog]

Some thoughts:

First the question was raised as to the penetration abilities musket balls. While I don't currently own any, I have a fair amount of experience with black-powder weapons, including excact historical replicas of late 18th and early 19th century weapons.

A musket ball will easily penetrate a pine 2"x4" at short to medium range, and still have enough energy on the other side to wound or kill someone. Denser woods like Oak will stop the musket ball within 2".

I have also had the priviledge of seeing an (American) Revolutionary War cannon demonstration where a canister of grapeshot was fired into a large wooden plank from a range of about 40m. The grapeshot shredded the board - I think there was more wood lying in flinders on the ground than there was still on the plank. I can't say for sure how much energy the grapeshot had on the other side of the board, but I certainly didn't see any iron balls stuck in the wood.

This leads me to guess that WWII canister shot would likely penetrate at least the outer wall of a light building at close range and still have enough energy to wreak major havoc on the inside of the building. I am more skeptical about canister shot's ability to penetrate heavier structures, but I have no hard evidence on that subject.

I am actually more perplexed by the fact that in CMBB canister seems to be able to wipe out an entire 11-man squad at 20m, but the same canister shot from the same gun can also wipe out a squad at 100m. If the canister shot is spread out wide enough at 20m to hit 11 men in a combat formation, isn't it going to be so spread out at 100m that it's very unlikely to cause such a dense cluster of casulaties? IOW, if at 20m the shot is widely enough dispersed to hit a 20m wide arc (about what you'd need to catch a whole squad), then presumably at 100m, the 'spread' will be about 100m, meaning that it would have the possibility of causing casualites over a very wide area, but the density of projectile/m^2 would be much lower and the lethality in any given 20m area much less.

Conversely, if the canister is designed to give a more reasonable spread of, say, 40m at 100m, then at 20m the spread is only going to be 8m. I'm sure within that 8m area, the canister would absolutely shred everything, but that's a pretty small area for an entire squad to be operating within.

Has anybody read any information about the optimal range for WWII canister shot?

Cheers,

YD

[PeterX]

Just for kicks, I set up a little scenario with a T34 firing at a platoon of Landsers in a moat-surrounded church. I removed the HE rounds from the tank.

Result: The T34 could be induced only to fire canister at the squads in the 'windows', that is, at the troops in a position to fire on IT. These were shredded. Troops hunkered down in the bowels of the structure were untouched. You can't Area Fire with canister.

OTOH, this begs the question: how many churches have 'windows'?

[ January 24, 2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Gpig]

Cool. Interesting.

I guess that's really what I wanted to know.

And that is there is a way to avoid being killed by cannister rounds. Hunker down out of LOS.

Still, I wonder if any type of cover has an effect at all on the lethality of the Cannister shot?

It seems to me that you're toast no matter what type of cover you are in.

Thanks for all the discussion.

Gpig

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by PeterX:

...Result: The T34 could be induced only to fire canister at the squads in the 'windows', that is, at the troops in a position to fire on IT. These were shredded. Troops hunkered down in the bowels of the structure were untouched. You can't Area Fire with canister.

...

Well, this last post put me doing what I said I wouldn’t be doing... never say never !

General conditions

T-34 with 76.2 L42 with only C ammo parked 30m from a tall heavy building

A German riffle 41 platoon all inside the tall heavy building HIDEN with no cover arc positioned in the falling way:

1 squad (10 men) 40 m from the T34 (10 m inside the building) right in the edge of the possible LOS.

All other squads and HQ are out of LOS from the T-34 but in LOS of each other.

EFOW used, the T-34 can’t see any enemy

1st experiment (10 runs)

T-34 is “area firing” to the edge of the LOS exactly on top of the German squad (a 40 m shot 10m into the building*)

*This type of building is a square with 20m by side

Simple average of number of men KO in the first shot: 7.6 (76%)

Most observed result: 8 (80%)

Notes: All men were killed at maximum on the 3rd shot 100% of the time.

The survivors of the 1st shot were always out of player control (panic and routed)

All squads out of T-34 LOS weren’t in anyway affected.

2nd experiment (10 runs)

T-34 is “area firing” to the edge of the building, exactly 10m away of the German squad (a 30m shot 0 m into the building)

Simple average of number of men KO in the first shot: 7.7 (77%)

Most observed result: 8 (80%)

Notes: The same has experiment 1

1st off, let me say, CM takes into account the C charge round firing distances (that is not in question here), if you do these same tests with greater firing distances, the % of KO soldiers will dramatically go down.

Observations to the result of these tests…

Not putting in question how a tank can fully “see” 100 m^2 in a heavy building…

Most likely, CM has it right regarding C ammo lethality in closed spaces when compared to real live…

…but there are a few questions/problems

Taking out the idiot idea that shots could be penetrating the wall; every single one, hit the “spot”… Every shot found its way into the building by a “window”, “door” or whatever.

Some of you will say, “the tank was 30 to 40 m of the target, a gunner would never miss the hole in the wall at that distance”, fine.

Now even accepting that every shots went by an opening in the wall, it couth above 70% of the man in that “specific” room (because building have compartments, haven’t they?).

Even more incredible, all the men were hidden! Taking every possible cover of the terrain… but never the less above 70% were KO.

At least to me, these are too many singularities in one situation…

In the 2nd test it was proven that it was indifferent where the squad was relatively to the shot “landing” spot… wish means, that virtually there are only 2 places to be in a building… In the 100 m^2 room inside the LOS of the tank, or the “dark side in wish you are completely safe”.

Many of you will say; “ this is due to the CM building abstraction…it will be better in CMx”.

I don’t contest that; but I play with what I have… and although I will buy CMx, I’m not egger for it.

In my view, what we have here is a correct (real) canister round effect, putted together with a not so “correct” game engine limitation. The adding of these 2 effects, originates an overall “weird”, “distorted” outcome.

This is a game, it has limitations, things can’t be all as reality, so compromises must be done. To me the current compromises favor too much tanks in city fights. So, most likely, the C round effect as to be “wrongly” tune down in order to produce an overall better effect.

I’m not a first language English speaker, to some, my words my sound confusing… but look into this perspective as into the artillery round effectiveness in CM. If artillery were to be as effective as some people want it to be (most likely as it was in real live), we would have weird outcomes in our virtual battlefields.