A New Beginning-Invitational Tourney

[CombinedArms]

I'd still like to play in this Tournament, or something like it. If Wild Bill & Co are writing scenarios for it, it should live on. I'd say, just play it with the participants who want to remain.

I have concerns about a couple of the rules (particularly the map edge one,since some well-designed scenarios seem actually to require the attacker to use the map edge), but as long as I know what the rules are in advance, I'm cool with them. Anyway, I hope this can live on in some form.

[Treeburst155]

Combined Arms,

The Wild Bill Tourneys are alive and well. This thread concerns a different tournament.

[CombinedArms]

Oh, great!

And pardon my confusion.

[Mick_Oz]

First off, to WineCape, very sorry to hear of your wife's auto mishap but it's wonderful that she escaped injury. Cars can be replaced.

Re the tourney demise: c'est la guerre. It was all getting a bit too hard methinks. I was away for a week's fishing when the storm broke and frankly, was glad of it. The custom maps added to the complication with force purchases, etc. Probably easier to run normal QB's possibly in tandem with CAL rules or something.

"Gameyness" issues I reckon are best negotiated by the players themselves beforehand. Otherwise, imho, the umpire buys himself a bucket of stress.

At any rate, pleased that my bonus face-off with Berli is still on.. we are dusting off for battle with Short-75 Rules. He's the bad guys. [could it be any other way,lol?]

That $50 is the basis of my planned early retirement.. it's a year's salary down under!

Mick

[Treeburst155]

John Kettler,

We're having more than just a few dropouts. I'm getting some email (not nasty) too that expresses dissatisfaction with the new gamey rules. On top of that I think Leland's admonition against my trying to judge gamey play is something I really need to consider. IOW, the "gamey rules" could present more problems than they solve. In fact, I believe they already have.

I'm for scrapping the whole thing and starting fresh with Invitational players that are willing, including the ones who have dropped out. We have to come up with some set of guidelines so I can avoid the major hassles the Invitational spawned. My "gamey rules" aren't the answer.

I'm not willing to continue the Invitational as it stood before my "gamey rules" were announced, but I am willing to keep working on a solution where the invitees to that tournament can finally get their tournament if they want. In that sense the Invitational is not dead. I've just pushed the Emergency Stop button until some things are hashed out.

I'm heading to work for a couple hours and maybe I'll come up with another idea. Hopefully it will be better than my last one too.

[Shandorf]

Why are you guys griping about gamey play? Any veteran player ov Cm worth his salt knows that if you play gamey you play to lose.

I have challenged people to play gamey with me in the past just to prove I can still beat the snot out of them, so I just don't understand this at all.

I play to win. Sure, I want to have fun but I still want to win. And I know better than anyone that if you follow sound military doctrine and stick to you battle plan you have your best chance of winning. There is nothing else as far as I am concerned.

Jeff

[Treeburst155]

You know the best way to handle this situation? It's such an easy solution I never thought of it. We play the tournament as is but I just refuse to hear any complaints over gamey play. All have been warned that they may face tactics that they disapprove of. These things should be discussed before you start the game. If they are not, and somebody pulls a gamey stunt on you then you live with it, or withdraw if it bothers you enough. I'm not going to deal with it. So, anyone who is still interested, just play your games. I'm here to take care of my end.

All of you who dropped out because of my "gamey rules" are welcome to re-instate yourselves if you want. Just start playing your games again. No other action required. Everything is as it was in the beginning EXCEPT I no longer acknowledge the existence of gamey tactics.

He did what to you? Gamey? What's that? It sounds like a personal problem to me.

You get the idea. Play your games if you want. Withdraw if you want. Do whatever you want just don't come to me with complaints about tactics. The tourney will either live or it will die depending on if people stick it out. Be aware however that anyone who drops out will cause your score to be adjusted if you've played that person. This is necessary so everyone plays an equal number of games against the same opponents. So play away. Have Fun!!

EDIT: Just to make things PERFECTLY clear to all. As far as I'm concerned this discussion of how to handle this tournament is over. What I've written above is what I want to do. From now on I will just be updating standings, reporting game results, and quite possibly reporting the latest withdrawal from the tournament. We'll just see what happens.

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Way to go Mike - I would feel much better if you take this stance, not because i wish to take advantage of the rules, but because in the first place this is exactly how it should be.

As "Da Manager" you should not have to bear the grief of others complaints, you shoulod concentrate on managing the tourney.

Its the right decision Mike and puts my mind at rest.

Regards

CDIC

[Treeburst155]

Hey there, CapDog!! Good to hear you climbed back on the ship. It helps my morale out a bunch. You guys just play and have fun! Talk about the gamey stuff before you start and all will be well I think.

One other thing just came to mind. The force deletion issue has been a problem too. I forgot I tied that in with the gamey stuff. I'll handle that the same way. You guys need to talk that out amongst yourselves. Like gamey tactics, the force deletion issue does not exist as far as tourney management is concerned.

Hey, I kinda like this new way of dealing with things. If there's a problem I simply refuse to hear it. The Supreme Court does that all the time. LOL!

[Jarmo]

Woke up the next day and the tournament is back on.

I knew it was just a bad dream...

[Fuerte2]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

Woke up the next day and the tournament is back on.

I knew it was just a bad dream...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heheh...

I would also like to continue this tournament. I agree that "anything goes" is the best rule for tournaments like this (but I also agree if somebody individual requests some unit restrictions etc.), and I like the chess analogy. Playing is much more fun this way.

Jarmo, I will send my units later today...

[Treeburst155]

Welcome back, Fuerte!! I'm glad you decided to hang in there. We'll lose a few down the road I think, but that's the way it goes. Maybe we can still have some fun here.

Now that you guys in Finland are awake I know it's way past my bed time. Good Night.

[WineCape]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler:

Okay, Treeburst155 returns, the ToS is reinstated under new rules, we have a few dropouts, I'm thinking about improved force structure and... The Tournament vanishes for a second time....[to re-appear AGAIN, this time with NO GAMEY RULE complaints that we want to hear of]...

No doubt WineCape will have something to say about this latest stunner, but having had his wife in a wreck (thank goodness she's okay!) upon his return, he's rather distracted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What can I SAY, this tourney sure has 9 lives like el gatto in Pinocchio

You've all heard da boss, the ONLY rule about gamey (possible unfair) behaviour in your CM battles is that there IS NO RULE!! Now, will Sire Bil Hardenberger please re-take his seat?

PS: The missuss is all right - her "pocket money" has now been used for the excess of the car insurance claim

Regards from the "Stormy Cape",

Charl Theron

[jshandorf]

Damn, this tourney has been more on and off than my last GF and I. As Peng would say, Kiiiirist on a bike!

Okay, I am glad we got that all cleared up. Tonight than, I will spend sometime trying to get a couple new games going. I will send out a battery of e-mails tonight to my unaware victims.

Jeff

[Sledge59]

Congratulations to all who have weathered the storm. Your tournament is important to this board reader and undoubtedly hundreds of others. Keep those AAR's coming... the world is watching!

[Claymore]

-- key music - Disney theme - lots of strings --

-- small rodent steps in front of a microphone and begins...--

When the TofS was born

Rules were scarce and very few

One of them was this

Win or lose, toast with a brew

Ah...when you were a Tourney Star

made no difference who you are

Pommies, Krauts and Frenchies too

All marched for you

First those gamey moves my friend

caused poor Mikey's heart to rend

now no request is too extreme

for your dear troops

-- music swells...a group of mangey CM players recognizable only from post office notices rise in the darkened theater, join hands and swaying back and forth sing the chorus...

BOOM!

-- shot rings out from audience and mouse falls dead...TofS players vanish back into the darkness...music ends...curtain falls --

I'm glad we are back. Reading the postings last night however gave me a headache second only in magnitude to that that given me by my lovely children.

Shall we have one last post from Mike/Charl outlining the manner in which games are created and the players involved?

Cheers

Murray (former TofS participant)

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Claymore ]

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Claymore ]

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Treeburst155:

It's almost like any tournament would have to be "No Holds Barred" as far as tactics are concerned, like Iron Duke's tournament. In chess this gamey problem doesn't come up because there is no such concept in that game. I'm beginning to think that CM tournaments must necessarily be played in the same manner, as Fuerte suggested above. If the game allows it, it can be done, just like in chess. It's a competition so it's unnatural for people to avoid certain "moves" they KNOW would aid their cause just because SOME might think it gamey and complain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One other tidbit I can throw out: although trying to legislate against certain behaviors in the game is fraught with problems, you _can_ attempt to regulate "unrealistic" or "gamey" tactics through modified scoring. (Basically, using the carrot instead of the stick approach to behavior modification.)

BTS has already attempted to do this to some degree, e.g. by making crews worth more VP-wise than they should be based on combat power, but it seems that this bias is insufficient to discourage unrealistic tactics. However, in a tournament setting there's nothing that says you _have_ to score games using CM's built-in scoring system.

You could do things as simple as imposing VP penalties for dead vehicle/gun crews based on the end-game map, or change the victory algorithm dramatically (maybe base it solely on flags, or reduce the influence of flags, or make prisoners worth more, etc). You could impose a penalty for dead AT teams to discourage revealing them except when they actually have a chance to kill an AFV. Some of these things might require tedious post-processing or calculation but if you're willing to do that, you can do a lot to encourage people to avoid certain behaviors.

I'm not saying if you do this everything is all sweetness and light; people will say "this isn't CM; I want a CM tournament," they'll complain about the details of the scoring changes, and on and on. But you can at least eliminate the judgement calls that will come back to burn you, and you can always point to the rules and say "hey, these were published before the tournament began; it's not my fault you didn't read/understand them."

[Treeburst155]

Hi Claymore,

Here's the deal. Everything proceeds EXACTLY as it was in the beginning, before I caused all the ruckus with my "gamey rules". The only change is that I will not hear complaints concerning gamey tactics or force deletions. These issues are to be worked out between the players.

I only have one confirmed withdrawal at this point. That is SuperTed. He is busy beta-testing the scenarios for the Wild Bill Tourneys. Fuerte is back on board. CapitalistDog and Bill Hardenberger MAY choose to play again if they are keeping up with this thread. Does that clear things up for you?

CapitalistDog: I think your Email is down

Update: Bill H is going to pass on this one, preferring instead to enjoy the Invitational Follies from the sideline. Stay tuned, Bill, you never know what might happen next. LOL!!

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Claymore]

Mike,

Does that mean games in progress proceed? Or is the slate wiped clean and all players (including Berri-Berri ) get a mulligen? It seems like a total re-do is what is being proffered here. Maybe even the Irish Juggernaut will not have as easy a time of it in the "new and improved" Tourney.

If a re-do is truth, will you make up new maps for those games that are to be redone? Some of these battles were blind purchase thing-ies.

Also, should the field remain stocked with the quality players we had before, I have no problem continuing my prize offer of one bottle of the Dew of Life to the winner.

Cheers

Murray

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Claymore ]

[Fuerte]

Status update:

The battle with Berli is going on nicely. I am aware that this may be my only chance to get a win, considering Berli's previous score. Still it is way too early to say what will happen. He may get his first win here.

Jshandorf's troops I have not seen yet.

I understand now why Jarmo wanted to play our map! He has nice positions, and I can imagine what units he bought.

I have not heard about Fionn for a week or two.

Maybe Treeburst could post the scores again, so that we get this tournament to the normal state. I am very happy that the nightmare is over, and I am looking forward to playing with the rest of you. I am sure that I will learn a lot. I have one or two slots open, so just e-mail me, I accept anything.

[Treeburst155]

Claymore,

All games in progress or completed still count EXCEPT those games involving players that withdraw. Any games with those people that are in progress will not count for the tournament. Any games completed by withdrawn participants will be wiped from the books and their opponents scores adjusted accordingly. Right now only SuperTed and Bill H have bowed out. I think CapDog is IN based on his post above; however recent email says he's a maybe. I've not been able to get in touch with him yet for further clarification.

Fuerte,

I will post updated standings reflecting the withdrawal of Bill H and SuperTed within the hour. CapDog results will be included.

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[jshandorf]

Treeburst,

If two players agree to force selection rules you will still look over thier purchases to make sure they are complying with the agreed to terms, correct?

Otherwise I don't see how we could police each other since I won't see my opponents units until we are already into the game.

Jeff

P.S. And someone PLEASE tell my why is it that all the players who are dropping out are people whom I have already played or am currently playing? Hmmmm? Grrr....

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: jshandorf ]

[Treeburst155]

Here's the updated standings taking into account the two confirmed withdrawals. Don't be surprised if we lose a few more. This has been hard on everybody so you can't blame people for not wanting to mess with this tourney anymore. I take full responsibility for the chaos. I made several mistakes back to back in quick succession. On the bright side, I learned from them.

The standings:

Claymore........99...1...99.00

Fionn..........393...5...78.60

CapDog..........76...1...76.00

Jshandorf......144...2...72.00

Moon............60...1...60.00

Texas Toast....235...4...58.75

M. Dorosh......135...3...45.00

Jarmo...........41...1...41.00

John Kettler....44...2...22.00

MickOZ..........64...3...21.33

Berlichtingen...78...5...15.60

Ari Maenpaa......0...0...0.00

Fuerte...........0...0...0.00

Robert Hall......0...0...0.00

Sten Friberg.....0...0...0.00

Ben Galanti......0...0...0.00

Mr. Spkr.........0...0...0.00

Other news: Berli and MickOZ are arranging to do combat as we speak for the first offering of the $50 bonus prize. If either one manages 75 points they win. I predict a draw.

The following games have been initiated but I'm still waiting for one or both players' purchases. These are the games I mentioned in the last thread that I accidentally deleted. I have since found a backup of that folder. I'm good about backing up. This is necessary since I'm also delete happy. If your name is capitalized below I need purchases from you.

Fuerte/FIONN, ROB HALL/Texas Toast, Claymore/FIONN

[Treeburst155]

Shandorf,

Your average is up because of the withdrawals. Note also that only SuperTed and Bill H have withdrawn at this point.

Yes, I will still be making sure force purchase agreements are kept. Just be sure to keep negotiation email in case of a dispute. There should be very few disputes of that type since I am checking for compliance with agreements as I re-purchase on the final map. Of course, I could make a mistake; especially considering my recent record.

Checklist for new game negotiations:

1) Purchase restrictions

2) Force deletion issue

3) Gamey play

If you are vague in your agreements on these things don't be surprised when you are surprised.

Keep in mind also that the International Court of Tourney Disputes will not hear cases involving gamey tactics or force deletions.

[John Kettler]

Having improved my standings slightly (average went from 20 to 22) after being trounced by CapDog, I am now ready to confuse myself anew with fresh negotiations, with a view toward commencing hostilities with several of you as yet unmet on the Field of Mars.

Every time I think I've figured out what I'm doing here, we seem to undergo a paradigm shift which invalidates what I just learned, proving yet again that change is the one constant in the Universe.

I've got room for two, maybe three games. I can guarantee at least one reply per day to turns sent me, maybe more.

On a separate note, I shall be most interested in hearing from players who have devised effective solutions to known Allied deficiencies resulting from "missing SMGs/BARs," gross undermodeling of Vickers MMG (no sustained fire in a weapon renowned for it) and lack of cover negation and intimidation modeling for .50 cal. HMG, a weapon the Germans hated and feared. Also, let's not forget the lamentably absent M-15,M-16 and M-19 flak tracks, leaving the Allies with a very exposed towed 40mm to encounter an entire family of German towed and motorized light flak.

So far, armor and fire support seem to be the best counters, but I run out of fire support and in spite of almost heroic measures

to protect it, my armor dies, in urban fights

especially. This describes all my battles to date.

I am particularly concerned with fighting the various 2 LMG German squads, especially ones with StG-44s, and VS units with one MG and StGs and MPs in plenty. Oh, this has to be doable without force deletions.

So far, even reg Brit paras in command, in heavy buildings, haven't fared well, and that was against conscript VS in heavy buildings at around 40m range. Their FP at 100m with seven guys equals mine with ten, and they're quite competitive in close, not to mention frighteningly more numerous.

Can any grog tell me whether the British ever fielded Bren teams the way the Germans did LMG teams? Given that the Britsh used the .50 cal. MG on at least some of their vehicles, why didn't the infantry adopt it as well?

I'm on the contact list as kettler@relaypoint.net

Regards,

John Kettler