JoePrivate Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Jagdcarcajou: Hey, Has anyone checked the test scenario besides me? Just want to know if results are consistent with my own. Good to hear BTS is on the case. I had actually just bumped into my first case of this the other night since 1.12 came out, but I attributed it to bad luck until Jeff posted up. Once I started testing I saw a noticeable difference. Chris I ran your test scenario 10 times under 1.12, and resolved one minute of action with the following results: The squads with rifle grenades and fausts destroyed the HTs immediately, no suprise there I guess. The squads with demo charges destroyed the Sherman 7 times, immobilized it twice and no damage once; destroyed the MkIV 4 times, immobilized it twice, damaged the gun once and no damage 3 times. The squads with grenades destroyed the US HT 3 times, immobilized it once, no damage 6 times; destroyed the German HT once, no damage 9 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epée Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 This bug is also present in ver 1.1 . Epee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeski Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I'm a programmer and I can't imagine how many lines of code, arrays, and subroutines is in CM. But one thing is for sure when you right a program and test the living daylights out of it "No matter what" as soon as you release it to the users (me) your gonna have problems. Never fails. What I'm trying to say is Where can I send the Beer for Charles, Steve, Kwazy, and matt. ------------------ "If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them." - Jack Handey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 So does the problem apply only to HT's, or to ANY vehicle vs. Grenades? (Sorry, coming in late and confused.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Played a TCP/IP match with v1.12 a couple nights ago: My opponent had a Wasp running around, and I had a company's worth of panzerfaust100's. Even when the thing sat still for 2 turns, within 60m of 3 squads of Veteran Volksgrenadiers, they would not launch their 'fausts! You can guess who got fried on turn 3! But oddly enough, I waxed the Infernal Machine several turns later when a half-strength squad walked past it and idly tossed a grenade at it: Boom! One grenade, one kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I just ran a rookie independant test -volks SMG platoon vs M3A1 halftrack: The volks took out the halftrack after three turns with a faust. -volks SMG platoon vs M3A1 halftrack (2): The halftrack made it 16 rounds but it was killed by a granade dropped from a 2nd story window. It had around 15 to 20 granades and four or five fausts launched at it before that, and there was no effect -U.S. Rifle Platoon vs SPW 250/1: This was a different story; the halftrack lived. It took a pounding from rifle granades and hand granades, but nothing got through. At the end of 20 turns the allies had a tactial victory (9 casulties/2dead for the U.S. and 2 okay for the germans). -U.S. Rifle Platoon vs SPW 250/1(2): This time I tried the 2nd story granade drop, and it worked. It took a while to get the halftrack to get in range, but one granade from above and it was over. These were veteran infantry squads, and halftracks. The settings were as follows: village, moderate trees, small hills, day, clear, march 1945. I will allow you to draw your own conclusions. Armornut Rookie Experimenter [This message has been edited by armornut (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 An interesting seriries of tests. What conclusions do you folks draw from these posts of HT kill tests? I think that there "might" be something going on here because the tests seems to suggest an "intermittant" issue as it would appear that sometimes it is easier to kill that HT and sometimes its seems impossible. (or is that "just " a string of really bad luck) still interested in any further official comment from BTS Thanks again for taking a good look at this one. If they don't change anything can we "live with" this situation as it seems like it is not a problem that shows up ALL the time, just sometimes it seems that HT are harder to kill in close assault than at other times? -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangorn Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I had a problem with a tank destroyer, two squads keep throwing grenades at an immobilized hell cat for three turns without destroying it... was forced to bring a squad with a faust to do the job. Better check the effect of grenades against tanks too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 Any vehicle unsupprted by infantry should be meat for regular or better close infantry assault. That is historical reality. A halftrack? Barring amazingly good luck, a track should be dead within moments of getting into grenade range of a good order enemy squad, much less a platoon. Hell, who needs a grenade? Just fire a machine pistol through the front windshield! These things are deathtraps in clsoe combat!! I do *not* think this is liveable. I hate the idea of another patch, since CM2 should be the priority, but I can't help but think that this needs one anyway. Remeber my original post? It turned out not to be that important in the game, simply because three tracks alone can't do much. But what if those three tracks had been carrying a platoon of infantry? What if one had a flamethrower? That could have had a decisive effect, and it *will* once people realize that they can load up some tracks and drive them anywhere they want on the map with little or no concern for enemy infantry taking them out. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Fangorn: I had a problem with a tank destroyer, two squads keep throwing grenades at an immobilized hell cat for three turns without destroying it... was forced to bring a squad with a faust to do the job. Better check the effect of grenades against tanks too. OK well it seems that grenades against open top AFV's like the Hellcat and HT's are the focus of the issue that should be looked at here. Have we had this problem in the past (any one noticed until now?) or is it now specicific to v1.12? Grenades should do damage to anything with an open top, which is why at least one German vehicle in the game has the wire mesh over the turret, (presumably to keep those pesky grenades out), but the HeLLcat and the Ht's should be very vulnerable to the grenade attack from a close assault as Jeff points out. (But we should bear in mind the NOT every grenade that gets tossed ends up in the vehicle, maybe some of them miss and cause no real harm, or they are in fact picked up by the crew and tossed back out, OK in a board game, 2 six sided dice should have to roll snake eyes for that feat of good/bad luck!) -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-13-2001).] [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Also remember that when infantry are depicted throwing grenades at a vehicle, that's simply a graphical reprentation of a close assault. Meaning, they're throwing grenades, charging with their guns, putting sticks through the spokes or whatever else a squad of infantry can do to make a vehicle crew's life a little less cheery. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I've been discussing this issue for a couple of days now on alt.games.combat-mission. I did two hours worth of testing last night. After making a map with a small circle of woods (about 40 meters square), I put different German AFVs (one at a time) inside this circle along with an American vetran rifle platoon with no rifle grenades or demolition charges. The AFVs I used were a half-track, a PZIVg, a Panther, and a King Tiger. I ran the test several times with each vehicle. The infantry was able (as it should be) to destroy each of the AFVs within three turns (180 seconds). Most AFVs were knocked out in the first turn....except for the King Tiger and, you guessed it, the half-track. It seemed to my inexperienced eye that the infantry vs tank modeling was realistic. However, the half-tracks seemed way too hard to destroy. One shrugged off at least twenty grenades before finally succumbing. After that I did some more tests, but this time gave the infantry some rifle grenades. Results: no contest. AFV dies in the first few seconds every time. My unscientific, inexperienced conclusion(s): (1) Infantry vs tanks seems to be OK. (2) Half-tracks seem to be way too tough to take out with plain infantry. (3) Rifle grenades (and fausts, I assume) seem to work fine. -Doug ------------------ expert \'ek-,spert'\ n : someone who knows more and more about less and less until eventually they know everything about nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crank_GS Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 OK, my little $.02 worth... My test was 8 "arenas" (tall pines enclosing an open ground 2 square area) with 4 US M3s and 4 SPW 251/1, all Regular. The infantry components were: 4 US '44 Rifle Platoons, all Crack, and 1 with no leadership mods added to the HQ, next one with a few rifle grenades, next one with a few demo charges, the last one with no rifle grenades or demos, but maxed out leadership mods for it's HQ. The Germans got an SS platoon, no fausts, a Volksgrenadier platoon with a few faust 60s, a 44 Rifle platoon, no fausts, and a PzGr platoon, no fausts. End result? (yes, after only one playing, but I will be doing more) Obviously any HT facing a platoon with rifle grenades, demos or fausts dies a glorious death in seconds. At the end of turn 2, one US HT and one SPW were left. The remainder had died by grenade. Interestingly the "super" US squad with all the maxed leadership modifiers could not kill their target. The last US HT died on turn 4. The last SPW had 74 grenades tossed at it, with no apparent effect. The US HQ facing it was eliminated, and one of the squads was down to 2 guys... I agree with Jeff H - this is not quite kosher. Those tracks would have taken some casualties out, but their lives would have been brief and exciting. Those squads (platoons!!) would have swatted them quickly. ------------------ Capt. Byron Crank, US Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I found an old PBEM turn, played with version 1.05. A US-Halftrack was missed from close range by a Faust, but taken out by the FIRST thrown handgrenade of a Veteran SS squad. ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I absolutely hate the idea of another patch... BUT, I hate the idea of this bug being left in even more. Obviously its a single problem with "grenades/assaults" vs. HT's. This really has the potential to hurt an infantry player like myself... as well as detracting from the realism level. Hopefully we get one more quick patch to take care of this last clinging little bug. (As soon as Charles stops running around in circles, tugging at his hair, and screaming obscenities at us through the monitor...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Marder III moving through dense fog winds up 8 meters from Britsh paratroopers.......thinks I thank God I am playing 1.12, maybe they will survive..... light brown parcel fies through the air, boom scratch one Marder III ------------------ If frogs had uzi's, snakes woudn't mess with them so much. - Hiram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I have a little more information that may shed some light on the subject, or not. I ran more tests simular to the ones I have reported before, with one major exception; I messed with the elevation of the troops vs the HT. I found that in most all cases if the infantry is even a little higher that the HT they will get a granade into the open top. As I spent many an hour watching up close combat I saw that the granades were rolling under the HT and bouncing off of the side and rolling back. Therefore I tried to elevate my troops on a hill, and with in one turn dead HT. I don't know if this helps, but I saw it at least five or six times. This also goes with the previous findings that a inf squad in a 2nd story building can get a 1/2 track. Again I will let you draw your own conclusions Armornut [This message has been edited by armornut (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I also ran a test that moved the HT to an elevated position. This was very bad for my poor little inf. Though, once out of the ten runs an infantry squad got the halftrack. (Though I think that a faust was to blame) Just some add-on information Armornut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 Chup had an excellent point. Those greandes flying through the air are the graphical representation of the squad assaulting the track. They are not meant to be representative of what might really be happening. Let's be realistic here. You do not need a grenade to kill a halftrack from 10 meters. Just blow the driving compartment away with a submachine gun. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 Certainly being higher than an open topped vehicle will increase the odds of killing it. But I think that is more important when you are considering things like OT tank destroyers and such. They would be relatively more difficult to take out without a height advantage. However, a halftrack should be easier to kill regardless of height simply because it is really only partially armored. I do not think the windshield can resist rifle rounds from any elevation. I think we should dispense with the rampant testing at this point. People are doing so many different tests, under so many circumstances, the results are getting pretty blurry. BTS has stated that they are looking into it, and the tests they can run will be superior to anything we come up with. It is time to wait and see what they find out. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Remeber my original post? It turned out not to be that important in the game, simply because three tracks alone can't do much. But what if those three tracks had been carrying a platoon of infantry? What if one had a flamethrower? That could have had a decisive effect, and it *will* once people realize that they can load up some tracks and drive them anywhere they want on the map with little or no concern for enemy infantry taking them out. Jeff Heidman So if a HT doesn't die now when you chunk a grenade at it, will the infantry in the HT be invulnerable too? ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 bump ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonicc Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I have run some tests also. I put three m3 halftracks(conscripts) loaded with squads ranging from veteran to elite in them in a clearing surrounded by woods. level terrain no knockouts, all abandoned by turn 3. all infantry inside no casualties. run same test except surrounded by buidings some knockouts but still most abandon with no casualties to the troops inside the halftrack. the squads attacking were rifle 44 elite crack and veteran with elite hq with +2 bonuses and no fausts. It looks like passengers are invulnerable to casualties. I haven't gone back to 1.05 or earlier to see if they would have taken casualties or not. I have noticed that once the halftrack buttons the squads stop using their rifles and machine guns. Teutonicc [This message has been edited by Teutonicc (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Teutonicc: I have noticed that once the halftrack buttons the squads stop using their rifles and machine guns. Teutonicc Uhh, are you saying that up until the track buttons, the squads ARE you using their rifles and such????? Jeff Heidman [This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonicc Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Yes Jeff. The squads shooting at the halftracks will use their guns and grenades until the halftracks button then they stop shooting and use grenades only. On a different note I did test this out with mg42 heavy machineguns and .50 cal machine guns. These seem to work correctly. Same setups as above with the buildings. All halftracks abandoned or destroyed most time within 30 seconds one lasted as long as 1 minute and a half. Teutonicc edited for clarity [This message has been edited by Teutonicc (edited 02-14-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts