How will you use your SturmTiger?

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

(and in case Mace drops by, no, it doesn't have a fleece).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny minding my own business when my little internal Sheep radar went *ping*.

And for The Commissar, I believe that short movie of the Sturmtiger firing a shot in anger was taken in Warsaw, during the Warsaw uprising.

Which leads me on How I would use my Sturmtiger: For both sides as propaganda! (I mean that's what they were primarily used for, wasn't it? - Germans would film them driving around and firing the odd shot, The Allies would film them when captured)

[Warmaker]

Personally, I would have been more happy with something else. A Maus or a Panther II would have been interesting too. But if the Soviets are getting rare toys, then I guess I shouldn't complain...

I don't plan on using the Sturmtiger much, maybe for fun. For assaults, the StuH'42 and Brummbar would be more effective combat and cost-wise. The slow ROF is a turnoff, but when it does get used, well, it should be spectacular.

However, there is one thing I would use the Sturmtiger for and it is quite insulting... once opposing armor is destroyed, there usually will be some little building just behind the lines that cowering tank crews and broken squads huddle to for comraderie and emotional reinforcement. IT IS THE SOLE DUTY of my Sturmtiger to find such a building and obliterate it and the occupying cowards and send them to their maker! BOOM! The equivalent of pouring salt on someone's wounds!

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Guest Babra]

Will we see the very common Krupp Kfz 81? The rather neat looking Kfz 2? Will the Italians have their own trucks like the very sexy Fiat Dovunque or the even sexier Sahariane? Probably not. But we'll all have the Sturmtiger to play with. Woo hoo.

[PVLLVS MAXIMVS]

gotta jump on the bandwagon here...

When I first read this thread, I had no clue what a Sturmtiger was, but from the conversation it was obviously another ubertank for the germans... and at that point I was leaning towards the opinion that the game didnt need ANOTHER one of those. Hell, isnt the JagdTiger or the Jagdpanther bad enough?

But then, out of curiosity I looked it up online durning my lunch break and came across a site with a first hand account of an american Sherman unit which captured one at http://737thtankbattalion.org.

After I read that I was suddenly all for having it in, if only so I could design a scenario around that battle. It may not have a place in Quick Battles, but as far as Im concerned, a QB is totally inferior to a good scenario designed with mallice and forethought, and the ST seems like the perfect things to be the centerpiece of one...

Besides, look at the bright side. There are worse things that they could have put in.... Somewhere I read about a variant of the Panthers 75mm which was semiautomatic and had a 4 round clip. It was supposed to have a theoretical ROF of 40 rounds a minute... now THAT would suck.

[StellarRat]

Well, if they put them in, I will use them to demolish large concrete buildings. Of course, it will necessary to send a platoon or two of infantry ahead to make sure there are no "surprises" in the streets. Personally, I hope BTS gives us a rarity option where you only have a tiny chance of getting something like the SturmTiger in your TOE. I would expect to see a lot of Panzer IV and III's in my TOE and one of these monsters in about every 100 random scenarios.

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: StellarRat ]

[Mr. Johnson--]

I'm surely not complaing...I was just putting my vote in for Cavarly....I'm going to be quite happy with CM2.

[Warmaker]

Heheh, nice to see the player-hatin' for the Sturmtiger! Should be fun to use then!

You know, the more that I read of the "hate" for the ST, the more I want to try one out.

TURN 5:You've got your infantry company massed for an assault. All the sudden, BOOM! Lots of infantry out of action & greenie troops run home calling for momma! The Sturmtiger has struck! The ST withdraws for a reaload and disappears for an agonizing 10 turns for the Axis player, but it leaves a slightly irate Allied player counting his casualties.

TURN 6:The vaunted Sturmtiger stops at the outskirts of a town. Fighting can still be heard less than a km away, but the crew of the ST struggle to reload another round. Meanwhile, the panzer commander says to his crew that he will "reconnoiter the area" and quickly ensure the security of the area. Instead, while his crew toils away, he sneaks into the local brothel...

TURN 7:The Allied player finally getting over his irritation of "that event" has succeeded in smashing the first German line of resistance. However, a pair of elite Puppchens have destroyed several of his tanks. His infantry survived the assault itself relatively unscathed though, but... DAMN THOSE PUPPCHENS! Regardless, the attack must continue to reach the objective!

TURN 12:The Allied player has finally reached the German player's second line of resistance. Here, the Axis player planned on making a very determined stand and send in his next powerful weapon! The almightly PzKpfw IVJ! As the valiant panzer enters the arena to stop the tide of Allied advance and support the defenders, it is summarily knocked out by a bazooka with a penetration to it's thick turret front! The panzer dies with a whimper! The Allied infantry gathers to inflict a storm upon the defending Germans!

TURN 14:With the support of his halftracks the Allied player's infantry finally forces the German defenders to run with heavy casualties. However, Allied losses did mount and a company has been expended in the effort. Reorganization occurs and the reserve Rifle company has been brought up to take up the advance! Meanwhile, the German player quickly reorganizes what's left of his forces for one last stand at a village that lies at an important crossroads, the Allied objective.

TURN 15:The Sturmtiger's crew is nearly finished reloading the contraption. The gunner, the second most senior member of the crew begins to wonder where the hell his commander has gone. Just as he begins to look around, his commander can be seen running towards the panzer, straightening his uniform as he does...what's that funny smile on his face for...?

TURN 16:The Allied player resumes his advance. Token "speedbump" resistance has been encountered, as well as devious German sharpshooters. These have been brushed aside with very few casualties. A turn or two more and the objective should be within sight...

Meanwhile, the Sturmtiger has finally been reloaded. The crew strap in to rejoin the fray. The gunner for a second notices that his commander smells like "a cheap whore" but the thought quickly leaves his mind as orders are barked out. The panzer roars (or sloughs) down the road to reinforce the soon to be beleagured German troops.

TURN 17/18:The last line of German resistance has been encountered by the Allied player. The amount of fire received has been quite impressive and his squads at the spearhead have received quite a mauling from HMG42 fire. Nevertheless, his company reforms for one last, determined assault for the objective! The remaining Germans may be determined defenders but they cannot stand against his reinforced infantry company!

TURN 19:Light Allied AFVs return the favor against the German defenders. Light cannon and machinegun fire quickly silence the HMG-42 crews. Elements of the company begin their advance under now light defensive fire. An assault should soon be underway and victory will soon belong to the Allies!

But 'lo! As his infantry is in the early process of advancing, one of his halftracks succumbs to a hail of machinegun fire from the flank! What the hell? A nearby platoon looks at the direction of fire and spots that blasted Sturmtiger from earlier and sees it stop as it assumes a firing position. BOOOOM! Men, wheels, and kitchen sinks are tossed in the air in the middle of the Allied formation from the huge blast of the Sturmtiger's burp! The Sturmtiger's commander decides to withdraw and reload again in safety, but before doing so allows a crewman to fire several long bursts of insulting MG34 fire into the shattered Allied ranks. The remaining German defenders, defeaned and slightly in shock from the blast look on in amazement... halftracks and other light AFVs lay overturned and shattered. Once healthy and confident infantry squads are now either dead, panicked, or have broken to run home to momma!

The now "slightly-more-than-irate-than-last-time" Allied player begins to count his losses and comes to the conclusion that his forces are no longer in condition to carry out an attack. Batallion Headquarters is not going to like this bit of news...

The Tiger I/II and Panthers can be symbolized by the respective cats of their namesake. The Sturmtiger? A really fat cat that lounges around the house. It won't hunt the mice (Allies) no matter how many times you "encourage" it or nudge it with your foot and it does so on it's own sweet time

BTW, yes, I had the time and imagination to type this up. I've been in the hot Camp Pendleton sun all day at the rifle range and it's done some funny things to my train of thought :cool: Have a nice day gentlemen (and ladies)!

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Simon Fox]

Babs wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Other, far less rare, far less questionable and far more useful units will not be making it into the game. I have nothing at all against even the rarest of vehicles, but when they take precedence for inclusion over more common items then I have to get concerned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I absolutely agree with this, which goes to that IS3 thread too. A number of vehicles which were quite common did not make it into CMBO at the expense of stuff that was hardly used like Pershings and Super Pershings, that US Sherman crocodile etc etc. For example the 6pdr armed Churchills, the quad .50 1/2track (M16?), the Crusader AA, porte mounted bofors etc etc. It would be dissappointing if vehicles which were in combat and in a number of documented instances made a significant difference lose out to fairytale vehicles because of a "cool" factor (this is a general comment and not directed specifically at the sturmtiger).

I see the usual ARVE misconceptions have popped up in this thread.

The ARVE was a brilliant vehicle which did a fantastic job of saving British lives on D-day but it was not intended for bunker busting as such (though eventually it was used for that). The spigot mortar was for the demolition of beach obstacle from an armoured vehicle. On the US beaches the same job was done by combat engineers with explosives at huge cost in casualties (unsung heroes in my opinion). I am convinced, since I have pictures of houses hit by ARVE fire, that the blast is undermodelled in CM. I am also very unconvinced that the round was hollow charge, I wish I could find the reference BTS used for that bit of information. Take a look at one of those Belgian gate beach obstacles which were the main target of the 'flying dustbin'. It seems to me that a HE round would be a lot more effective in reducing it than a hollow charge round.

The armour of the ARVE is undermodelled in CM. Older model Churchills were converted to ARVE and additional armouring was done at the same time. BTS have used the base armour of the older Churchill models for the ARVE which is incorrect but an understandable oversight. Of course they still wouldn't have the Churchill VIII armour thickness but they are an entirely different purpose vehicle than the sturmtiger. The later model Churchills were either being used as is or converted to crocs at the time, a much more effective assault vehicle IMO.

[Stalin's Organ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat:

Well, if they put them in, I will use them to demolish large concrete buildings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I imagine they'll do quite well at demolishing small wooden ones as well!

I'd expect a 20+ yard lethal radius vs AFV from the point of impact, and 50 yds + vs infantry & guns, so it really doesn't matter too much whether you hit the target or not!!

Of course yuo won't want to shoot at anything on a crestline - imagine the roar of apin as the rocket goes off-map!!

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

Of course yuo won't want to shoot at anything on a crestline - imagine the roar of apin as the rocket goes off-map!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooh... good point! *scribble*scribble*

[Gyrene]

I'd fill the rocket with gifts such as T-shirts, Levy's, bubblegum and cigarettes and shoot them towards the Russian lines, this way I would make friends with the Russians and we could all realize how silly this whole war is.

And as the Russians run out to collect the presents I'd move the other, cheaper vehicles in and wipe them out.

(Apologies to Jack Handey)

Gyrene

[Jeff Heidman]

Let me clear something up:

I am all for every single esoteric, never used, single-run, and prototype weapon getting into the game. In an ideal world, CM would make an outstanding reference for WW2 weaponry.

BUt only *after* all the stuff that actually got used and was meaningful is included. If inclusion of the ST means that everything in front of it on the list of weapons is also included, then Whoopee! I am way excited.

As far as Pershing 2,s and IS-3s, the same standard applies to them. I think it sucked that the Allies got shafted on mabile AA vehicles, but got a vehicle that was never even seen in combat. Of course, much of that has to do with the work to make them, but in principle I think the CM1 unit list to be woefully lacking compared to the board wargames it is trying to emulate.

Here's to *everyone* getting what they want out of CMII...

Jeff Heidman

[Slapdragon]

I think BTS has to conted with two factors. The first is what I will dub the howl factor, the second I dub the damned factor.

The howl factor is a mathematical factor determining how much of a howl will be raised if a vehicle is not included in the game versus how much work it takes to get the vehicle into the game. Look at other threads, and you will see even the dorky Maus is getting a basket load of pleas for inclusion, not to mention the E-100. All a German tank need have is an disassembled part on the floor of some factory and some half finished drawings to create a very loud demand for inclusion, and BTS listens to its customers. If you search for the Sturmtiger, it has quite a few random mentions in the past year or so, all asking for this tank.

The next I call the damned factor. BTS is damned for listening to the howl factor and adding a vehicle, and is damned for resisting and sticking to their guns.

Does that mean that they are perfect? Nope, certainly Simon pointed out that the M-16 was an ommission that should have been included over the Lynx or the Pershing, but honestly it caused less of a hassle to exclude even a common US HT than an uncommon German one, and possibly saved us from the gamey tactic of quad .50 HTs rushing enemy positions with assault troops, so no big deal. In addition, there are multiple people at BTS, and we are part of BTS meetings or even Beta discussions, so it is unkown to us how labor is being divided, how long it takes Krazy to do a truck versus a tank, how long it takes to code AI tweeks on tanks, and the like. We do not know that dropping the Sturmtiger will result in a flood of other vehicles. For all we know, someone has already rendered it for them, and including it is no big deal.

[Dschugaschwili]

Think about it from the bright side: Finally there's an answer to the frequently asked question how to destroy a bridge!

Dschugaschwili

[Bruno Weiss]

David Aitken wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You're as bad as Steve Jobs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know who he is and whether he is "bad", relative to what precisely, and in drinking my coffee this morning, whoever he is, he is not at the top of my priority list.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Titanium Powerbook is nice, but I wouldn't call it sexy. A large explosion is similarly distant from my definition of sexy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you just identified what my response would be. "Your defination" of sex appeal. Since I did not say "sexy". Sex appeal, as in those who get that starry eyed look when something that appeals to them which is otherwise unattainable to them, is displayed visually or descriptively. Which is about the way I figure this pans out.

The more important point besides debating word definations being, the opposing thought process in the thread that is focusing upon "at what cost to other desired features", are some features being included. As has been repeatedly pointed out, BTS does not have unlimited time and resources. Choices must be made. When choices are made, some things are then included and other things elmininated.

Is the inclusion of the ST causing in and of itself the exclusion of something else, as someone pointed out. Possibly not, possibly so if viewed from the standpoint of the culminating effect of including the big booms, the glitzy, the audience appeal (sex appeal), or maybe as someone said it was so simple that Charles was able to do it over a cup of hot joe.

Someone can do the math though. Given limited time, if not resource then, there is only so many cups of hot joe that Charles has time to swallow before CM2 is due out the door. So I believe the primary concern is not so much over just the ST, all by itself, but how many ST's for popularity sake will then displace the more common, widespread weapons, vehicles, and equipment that would otherwise have been included.

Someone asked the question; "What would you as a commander do if given a town to take and a SturmTiger as a choice of a weapon?" I think the more pertinant question would be, how many commanders would be so fortunate? Across the broad spectrum of commonality, what was the likilyhood on a typical day on the Ostfront, in a typical battle, at a typical town road junction, that commander x would be able to enjoy such a commodity of inclusion.

In summation, (as Jackie Childes would say), it is not so much the ST which is troublesome, but the urge to deviate from the thought process that brought us the scope of commonality theme which achieved so much success with CMBO that is of concern to some. Concern, least we debate the meaning of that word, is not being a party poop, quite the contrary I would say that expressed concern is the most efficient way to ensure a successful party so as to avoid any potentiality of poop.

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PVLLVS MAXIMVS:

It may not have a place in Quick Battles, but as far as Im concerned, a QB is totally inferior to a good scenario designed with mallice and forethought, and the ST seems like the perfect things to be the centerpiece of one...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN

[Barticus]

All this debate about which vehicles should/shouldn't be in CM2 is very interesting but........

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by KwazyDog:

As it is there are around 300 vehicles in CM2 (as Charles metnioned in the preview) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they are already going to include 300 (more than twice as many as in CMBO) vehicles, why don't we wait to see what's there before we start complaining.

Bart

[Stacheldraht]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>but as far as Im concerned, a QB is totally inferior to a good scenario designed with mallice and forethought, and the ST seems like the perfect things to be the centerpiece of one... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've always felt that, at least against human opponents, QB's represent the game in its "purest" form. Just men, machines, and the minds controlling them, unconstrained by historical events (other the ones that gave rise to the unit specs) or a map designer's will. Tactics, pure and simple: here's random terrain and some (potentially random) units; now see what you can do with them.

From that perspective, among others, the ST and other rarities are arguably more worthy of inclusion in the game than numerous slight variations of more common vehicles, precisely because of the more unusual or unique tactics that can evolve in using the unusual vehicles. I.e., a higher number of more diverse units can yield more tactical complexity.

Of course, this view is predicated on the perspective that sees CM as a tactics game rooted in history, as opposed to a history game that's tactical.

[Kurtz]

The Fearless Human Cannonball:

What other reasons do you need?

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Kurtz ]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barticus:

All this debate about which vehicles should/shouldn't be in CM2 is very interesting but........

If they are already going to include 300 (more than twice as many as in CMBO) vehicles, why don't we wait to see what's there before we start complaining.

Bart<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT why wait better to start now & get a jump on the complaining wagen .......

Regards, John Waters

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Absolutely! Complaints are provided early, often, and consistently. Complaints are rendered when something is included, complaints are rendered when something is not included, complaints are rendered when there are no complaints, and complaints are rendered in opposition to complaints. Probably the most often seen method of communication second only to the accusation. Which, we will discuss in another chapter.

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Barticus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Absolutely! Complaints are provided early, often, and consistently. Complaints are rendered when something is included, complaints are rendered when something is not included, complaints are rendered when there are no complaints, and complaints are rendered in opposition to complaints. Probably the most often seen method of communication second only to the accusation. Which, we will discuss in another chapter.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Bruno......what you're saying is that as a complainant, you are fully complaint compliant?

Bart

[Bruno Weiss]

Precisely Bart, as well as pointing out that those like you who complaign about complaints are simply fulfilling an important role in our great system of forum justice for dispute resolution as derived from internet common law. Wherein, the complaintant has a right to confront the complaintiff, and a right to have the complaints brought before a jury of their peer complaigners.

[Barticus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Precisely Bart, as well as pointing out that those like you who complaign about complaints are simply fulfilling an important role in our great system of forum justice for dispute resolution as derived from internet common law. Wherein, the complaintant has a right to confront the complaintiff, and a right to have the complaints brought before a jury of their peer complaigners. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhhh yes, whereas, I (in my capacity as complaintant) resolutely resolve to come to the resolution of constant complaintiff complaining leading thereby and wheretofor certain reparations to the complaintiff by the complainer to the amount not exceeding an even half-dozen forum postings, unless, of course, the forum has instituted the baker's dozen which therefore can lead to an incorrect levying of fines against said complaintiff thusly leading to a totally improper imbalance of impartiality for the poor imbecile improperly attempting to imbibe the content of this rambling post..........ahhh, if my English teacher could see me now!!

Yours legalesely

Bart

[Mannheim Tanker]

As bait.