What happened to the infantry guns?

[lcm1947]

I was reading a book titled "Second World War Combat Weapons Vol. 1 and came across several types of S.P. Heavy Infantry Howitzers. I had not seen or heard of these before or at least they aren't in CMOO so I assume these were not encountered in the Western Front? I was wondering if they would be in CM2. They sound pretty cool and seem like they would be tough on the troops or were at least intended to be. The info in the book is limited in regards to useage of said vehciles but do provide good specifications. Anybody have more info on the useage of these troop killing machines?

[Jagdwyrm]

Are not the StuH42 and M8 HMC examples of what you are talking about?

[lcm1947]

They don't seem to be as they show the StuH42 as a S.P. assault gun. Says the infantry howiters consisted of the 15cm heavy infantry howitzer mounted in the hull of a modified turretless Pz. Kpfw. II chassis.

[Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947:

They don't seem to be as they show the StuH42 as a S.P. assault gun. Says the infantry howiters consisted of the 15cm heavy infantry howitzer mounted in the hull of a modified turretless Pz. Kpfw. II chassis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only some 25 of that particular type of vehicle were produced (if memory serves me correctly) and all of those served in North Africa and were lost there. There were comparable vehicles called "Bison" which were mounted on Panzer 38(t) chassis, both the early, rear-engined original version and the latter, mid-engined version.

In addition, there was a Panzer III version, which mounted the gun in a fully-armoured casement, again, produced in only small numbers and all were lost on the Eastern Front at either Kursk or Stalingrad.

Then there was the Braumbaer which was the definitive version, mounted on the Panzer IV, in a fully enclosed, fully armoured casement. Again, only relatively small numbers were produced and most saw service in the East and in Italy.

There were also a small number of conversions of various foreign produced chassis, most notably French but they were too few to really be counted for much.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I assume you're talking about vehicles like the Bison, a 150mm infantry gun mounted on the Pz I chassis.

Like this: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz11.htm#panzer1

Scroll pretty far down to see it.

[lcm1947]

OK, so maybe they weren't too hot but sure looked like mean little suckers. Thanks for the reply and info Brian.

[Cromwell.]

I think you are talking about the SiG 33.

Various models mounted 150mm infantry guns on PzKpfw I, II, III and 38(t) chassis.

Certainly saw service in the Western Desert and Russia. Not sure about elsewhere.

[lcm1947]

Cromwell. You may be right but it does not mention SIG at all. What is a SIG anyway. the book is supposed to have every German vehicle and gun in it and I couldn't find anything on a SIG. Is it known as something else? One of these infantry howitzers I was talking about went by the name " Grizzly Bear".

[JasonC]

Wrong, there were around 500 of them made. The 25 figure is for only one early model, the 15cm sIG 33B - which has caused endless confusion on the subject of these critters. Numerous types existed on many different chassis, but the Czech chassis version - Pz 38t - the same chassis used for the Hetzer, and often underreported, some sources being limited to Germany proper - the most numerous one, accounting for 85% of them with conversions included.

To simulate them in CMBO, just use the Hummel. It is close enough when used tactically, for direct fire.

Here are the actual production and conversion numbers for all the various types -

15cm sIG 33B - 24 built in 1942.

15cm sIG (sf) auf Pz I - 38 converted in 1940.

15cm sIG (sf) auf Pz II - 12 built in 1941.

15cm sIG (sf) auf Pz 38t - 393 built, most in 1943 and 1944.

15cm sIG (sf) Hezter conversions - 30 in 1945.

The true SPA 150mm howitzers, on the other hand, were

15cm sFH-13 (sf) auf Lorraine Scheppler (f)(capture French chassis) - 94 converted in 1942

15cm sFH-18 (sf) auf III/IV "Hummel" - 714 made, most in 1943 and 1944

Total 150mm sIG (sf) - 497

Total 150mm Howitzer (sf) - 808

And the sIG assault gun versions were definitely used in the west. The mobile divisions had them in Normandy, 6 per panzergrenadier regiment. They are also used in the Bulge, in support of volksgrenadiers.

Oh, and these are not the same critters as the Brummbars ("grizzly bear", proper). That is another item entirely, the heavily armored Sturmpanzer IV, also with a 15cm gun but with thick armor too. 306 of those were made, most of them in 1944 - but 45 were ready in time for Kursk. Most of those were used in the east, but one battalion of them fought opposite the Brits in Normandy - though it only had about 1 company in the line at any given time. These ones were not attached to the infantry or panzergrenadier regiments like the self-propelled sIG above, but instead were organized like StuGs in independent battalion-sized formations, then attached to whatever local unit, tactically.

I hope this helps.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[lcm1947]

So what does SIG stand for? :confused:

[Vergeltungswaffe]

lcm,

SiG refers to schwere infanterie geschutz (heavy infantry gun) and sFH refers to schwere Feldhaubitze (heavy field howitzer)

[lcm1947]

Thanks Vergeltungswaffe. I'm glad you mentioned the sHF too. That helps. Why didn't the German's just use plain old English like the rest of us though? Darn people!

[Andrew H.]

I've always sort of wished that BTS had included the Hetzers with the 150mm IG, although I do wonder how many shells they could carry. My PzKw 38(t) In Action is silent on this point.

There's a picture HERE, scroll about halfway down.

[lcm1947]

I don't know Andrew about wanting 150mm Hetzer's. My American's have enough trouble with the 75mm. Those are some bad little tanks and the 75mm is plenty gun I think. Course if I played the German's it would be a different story. Cool site thanks.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

The 25 figure is for only one early model, the 15cm sIG 33B - which has caused endless confusion on the subject of these critters.

Here are the actual production and conversion numbers for all the various types -

15cm sIG 33B - 24 built in 1942.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the Sturminfanteriegeshutz 33 (StuIG33), correct? See StuGIII page (middle of the page) for a pic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>15cm sIG (sf) auf Pz I - 38 converted in 1940.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the Bison, Jason? We've had this conversation on the board before (SP Arty and Indirect Fire in CM2?), but never came to a consensus. Pic at bottom of page: Bison.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>15cm sIG (sf) auf Pz II - 12 built in 1941.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pics: Sturmpanzer II

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>15cm sIG (sf) auf Pz 38t - 393 built, most in 1943 and 1944.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one comes in two models: with the gun forward and back. See the bottom of the 38t page on Achtung Panzer. I don't know if these are called 'Grille' or not?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>15cm sIG (sf) Hezter conversions - 30 in 1945.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sIG33/2 JagdPanzer 38t Hetzer

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oh, and these are not the same critters as the Brummbars ("grizzly bear", proper).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brummbar

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I hope this helps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep.

- Chris

[JasonC]

Bison is a term that migrated. It originally applied to the early ad hoc 150 sIG(sf) conversions, but it was also definitely used for the later purpose-built ones on the Czech chassis.

They are part of the story of the use of German light tank production capacity after light tanks became obsolete. Both the 20mm Pz II and the 37mm Pz38t were withdrawn from production in 1942. (An early experiment with SP 47mm AT proved not much of an improvement). The immediate replacement was Marders, in both cases.

That was a fine role for them, but when the Pz III was abandoned in 1943 and its production switched to StuG carrying 75mm guns but armored and topped, the Marder was basically obsolete. The Hezter, the eventual use of the Pz38 chassis production in late war, wasn't yet developed (they were made only in the last year of the war, April 44 through April 45 effectively).

What were they supposed to do with the chassis production in the meantime? For the Pz II, the answer was the 105mm Wespe SPA. Those replaced Marder IIs in use of the available chassis. For the Pz38t, the answer was these 150mm siG SP, plus a few 20mm flakpanzers, until the Hezter came along (and a few thereafter, to be sure).

As for the two versions, front and back fighting compartment, I don't know the details of the changeover or how many of each type were produced. But I can guess. The forward positioning was probably the designers first attempt, maximizing the room for the fighting compartment, crew, and ammo.

The problem with that is obvious from your photo, though. That solution puts all the weight of the gun mount right over the first roadwheel, which would create a very front and top heavy vehicle that would be quite hard to steer. Whereas the back position - familiar from the Marder incidentally - puts the weight of the gun on the center of the carriage front to back, the "balance" position.

The back fighting compartment version is probably the later of the two models, and likely the more common production model. But how long it took to decide clumsy was worse than cramped, I don't know for certain. It is a guess.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

Bison is a term that migrated. It originally applied to the early ad hoc 150 sIG(sf) conversions, but it was also definitely used for the later purpose-built ones on the Czech chassis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forty states in his German Tanks of WWII:

"The 15cm SP heavy infantry gun was known as Grille (Cricket), of which 282 were produced in 1943-44 (Some sources call it the Bison, possibly in error.) The 15cm SP heavy infantry gun was mounted in both the PzKpfw 38(t) Ausf H chassis and on the special new Ausf K chassis."

*shrug*. Bison or Grille, take your pick. Might the Bison be the early forward mounting and the Grille (Cricket) the rearward mounting? Does Chamberlain's book mention this gun?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for the two versions, front and back fighting compartment, I don't know the details of the changeover or how many of each type were produced. But I can guess. The forward positioning was probably the designers first attempt, maximizing the room for the fighting compartment, crew, and ammo.

The problem with that is obvious from your photo, though. That solution puts all the weight of the gun mount right over the first roadwheel, which would create a very front and top heavy vehicle that would be quite hard to steer. Whereas the back position - familiar from the Marder incidentally - puts the weight of the gun on the center of the carriage front to back, the "balance" position.

The back fighting compartment version is probably the later of the two models, and likely the more common production model. But how long it took to decide clumsy was worse than cramped, I don't know for certain. It is a guess.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FWIW, Bishop's Encyclopedia says the 38t chassis was converted to a sIG carrier in 1942. The first series was mounted forward and was "so successful that it was formalized in 1943 by the production of a new version.". So in 1943 they started producing factory-made models rather than simply converting existing tanks. The new model placed the engine forward and moved the gun back, which limited it to carrying 15 shells. It doesn't mention why the change in configuration was made, but you may have hit the nail on the head.

Thanks for the info.

- Chris

[Kim Beazley MP Ma]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

(An early experiment with SP 47mm AT proved not much of an improvement).

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On what do you base that assertion? All my reading has indicated that the JagdPanzer I was in fact actually quite a successful little vehicle, equipped with quite a hard hitting weapon for the early war period - superior to the equivalent German weapon which was the Pak-36 3.7cm AT gun.

Indeed, the Czech 47mm remained marginally useful until 1944, several being encountered in Normandy.

[JasonC]

Not the J.Pz I, which was a reasonable use to make of the quite limited Pz I chassis. Much better than a pair of MGs, surely. But they also made ~150 on the Pz38t chassis. Compared to the 75mm PAK mounted on the same vehicle the following year as the Marder, I'd call the 47mm distinctly limited. It was not continued; the Marder was.

[Mattias]

Perhaps the name "Bison" lived on but it was not used officially in connection to the SP sIG's mounted on the Pz 38 chassis.

The first prototype using the Pz 38 chassis was produced in 1940 by Alkett. It was intended to replace the Pz I and II conversions that didn't really cut it due to those chassis being over strained by the weight of the gun. It seem that the production of the Pz 38 tank and later the Pak 40 "Marder" conversions where more urgently required and that this is why it was not until February 1943 that the sIG 33 was finally mounted on the Czech chassis.

The earlier "H" model Grille was produced because there was an urgent need for the vehicle/weapon combination and because "old" Pz 38 chassis coming back for repairs could easily be used.

The later (not by much though) model "K" was quite a considerable redesign of the vehicle. The engine was moved forward, leaving the fighting compartment uncluttered by automotive components, simplifying the drive train and also increasing the accessibility of the same. The upper hull was redesigned and now featured a "one piece" sloping armored surface that made it possible to decrease the armour thickness while maintaining an acceptable level of protection. Over all it was a considerably more efficient vehicle from every perspective, production, maintenance and fighting.

The distribution of weight was better in the later vehicle but even in the earlier "H" model the nose heaviness was not big enough a problem to warrant the reinforcements of the suspension, that later became necessary for the Hetzer.

While on the subject I would like to put some further, brighter, light on the Pz 38 (t) chassis. It would be unfair to dismiss it as just another obsolete tank chassis used for whatever menial task available for it. The chassis and automotive components of the Pz 38 (t) was actually one of the best designs to take part in WWII. Though the engine was a bit on the weak side, the reliability of the design was significantly higher than that of it's contemporaries. The story goes that in mixed units the Pz IV's where the first to fall out, then the Pz III's while the Pz 38's would just keep on going.

The gearbox allowed for changing gears with continuos power, a great advantage in adverse terrain. Changing direction was also done without loss of power, only in sharp corners would the driver have to resort to breaking the inner track. The layout of the suspension was efficient and non intrusive as far as interior space was concerned.

The fact that the chassis, with very little changes, accepted an increased weight of about 60% going from the PzKw 38 to the Hetzer configuration is further testament to the quality of the original design.

Just how well liked the chassis and automotive design was is shown by the fact that in 1944 (late I assume) there was no less than 24 vehicle versions in production, in project or test phase, that were based on or directly derived from this design. The fact that it was tried an true also being a major factor of course in those late war days.

M.

P.S.

Jason, are you sure you have seen mountings of 47mm guns on Pz 38 chassis similar to the JgPz I? I can find no record of them.

The Skoda factory did produce/convert 132 of the JgPz I's in any case.

P.P.S

Looking at the Marder III in CM it seems there has been a hickup or two. The drivers position is on the wrong side of the vehicle and IRL there was no visible air intake on the left side. Details, details

-Ah, its a a bit of a shortcut. The CM Marder III is actually a Wespe (Pz II chassis) with the Pz 38 suspension "glued" on. Looks nice ehough. I suggest you get Tigers (I think) mod for it though.

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Wolfe]

A very enlightening thread. Thanks.

BTW, check out the Stielgranate 42 (in the German Vehicles section):

Jagdtiger.de

7 times more HE!

- Chris

[JasonC]

To Mattias - you are right, they didn't make 47mm on the Czech chassis. What had me confused was the 35 designation of the earlier Czech tank type (before the 38), and the renault-35 captured French chassis. The Germans used 147 of the second of those for 47mm SPAT, and looking at production tables I thought they were built on the Pz35(t) Czech. On closer inspectation, I find the official designation of the vehicle I was thinking of is the 4.7 cm Pak (t) auf Gw R-35 (f).

As they say, my bad. Thanks for the correction.

[Mattias]

Well, there certainly are a vehicle or two to mix up!

The 47mm Pak on the 35R chassis is a cute little vehicle, way too tall though

174 where produced as gun carrier and a further 26 where produced as command vehicles, with a machine gun ball mount replacing the main gun (though some vehicles where left with only a hole for the mounting).

There was some energy expended on replacing the 47mm with a German 50mm Pak 38, but as even the latter gun was getting long in the tooth with the arrival of the T-34 & Co. this never went beyond a prototype.

It would be nice to see it in CM:BB but despite the somewhat respectable number produced I doubt it.

M.

[MikeyD]

In the listings for the Airborne is the M3(?) 105mm Pack Howitzer, which is depicted as a straight 105mm howitzer but was in fact more of a super-75mm Pack Howitzer with a cut-down 105mm barrel and standard 105mm gun breech. So a heavy U.S. infantry howitzer's in the game, it just LOOKS like a standard 105.

[Mattias]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe:

BTW, check out the Stielgranate 42 (in the German Vehicles section)

7 times more HE! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm probably blind for missing it but, what/where are you talking about Wolfe?

M.