Why are war gamers such an angry bunch ?

[Hannibal]

It seems unless a computer wargame is perfect people get angry .I mean you just found you girlfriend in bed with you bestfriend angry .I have not seen that on this board as much because this game is so good . Do we expect to much from the people who make these game. I don't think they came be making that much money designing games that at most sell what 20,000 to 30,000 copies . This in not a flame I know most wargamers are a very good bunch , but some people take this stuff maybe a little to heart .

[ 05-04-2001: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

[The Commissar]

Probably due to the fact that hard core wargamers are "grognards" and want perfection. Its kind of difficult to achieve perfection, so people complain.

When a game is utter ****e however, and you've waited and devoted a solid amount of your time to waiting for it, you get pretty pissed when it comes out and does not reach your expectations. Wargame or no wargame, this holds true for all.

It just happens more for wargames because wargame devs usually dont make that much money and it is thus harder for them to devote resources to perfecting a game. So there you go. Thank goodness for BTS and CM!

[Michael Emrys]

I've noticed that people who post to military newsgroups often tend to be a bit on the touchy side too. Since I don't subscribe to other ngs much (I have, but didn't have the time to keep up with them much), I don't know how widespread that is across usenet. I gather that the various conspiracy ngs see a lot of flames...

I guess we militarists are just an agressive lot...

Michael

[gunnergoz]

Hey, who the heck do you think you are, you (*^%*%*^*&&^! Calling us out like that, implying that we're anything but reasonable, kind and tender human beings! Put this in your ^%#$&^%&% and stuff that up your )*&(*Y(*&.

Besides that, your mamma dresses you funny!

Angry bunch, my ()&(*&(&^*&%%, where's my uzi?...

[Panzer_Meyer]

Yeah, What he said! -^-

[Barrold]

You have the basics of a good point that would be better if the facts about the software industry worked like any other business.

Consider if you bought a $45 ink pen and what your reaction might be if it either didn't write directly out of the package or was a different color than it was labled.

Software seems to be a unique product that the producers seem to believe that 'close enough' is a good point to go gold and ship.

Having the repeated experience of getting burned by vaporware would likely create the type of reactions described. On the other hand they could just be whiners being squeeky wheels.

BDH

[Mace]

I'm not.

Mace

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hannibal:

It seems unless a computer wargame is perfect people get angry .I mean you just found you girlfriend in bed with you bestfriend angry .I have not seen that on this board as much because this game is so good . Do we expect to much from the people who make these game. I don't think they came be making that much money designing games that at most sell what 20,000 to 30,000 copies . This in not a flame I know most wargamers are a very good bunch , but some people take this stuff maybe a little to heart .

[ 05-04-2001: Message edited by: Hannibal ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grab your handy French dictionary and look up the word 'grognard'. That will make everything crystal clear

[Hannibal]

Grognard is what Napoleon called his Old Guard .This was one of the most elite units of all time .Never felt right calling myself that just because I play games and grumble

[Mr. Johnson--]

I've heard about doctors get into childish flame wars in chatrooms. I think the primary reason this happens is because of the medium we are using does not convey feelings like they would in a face to face conversation.

[StellarRat]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barrold713:

You have the basics of a good point that would be better if the facts about the software industry worked like any other business.

Consider if you bought a $45 ink pen and what your reaction might be if it either didn't write directly out of the package or was a different color than it was labled.

Software seems to be a unique product that the producers seem to believe that 'close enough' is a good point to go gold and ship.

Having the repeated experience of getting burned by vaporware would likely create the type of reactions described. On the other hand they could just be whiners being squeeky wheels.

BDH<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have ever done any complicated programming you would know why this is the way it is. Imagine being a doctor where every patient has a different anatomy or a mechanic where the same model car comes with 2,000,000 different options and you'll start to understand why writing perfect software is basically impossible. Not only is everyone's computer a little different than everyone else's computer, but any complex software will have literally millions of different possible paths through the code. Throw in some deadlines and budgets which restrict testing and debugging time and the problem gets even worse. CM is amazing because it is nearly perfect. It's never crashed my machine (except for beta patches.) And it really doesn't do anything major completely wrong. I'm really impressed with these guys. Having a small development is a big plus when it comes writing quality software because everyone knows how everything works.

[ 05-05-2001: Message edited by: StellarRat ]

[Johnny D.]

I know I always get angry when some freakin Shermans get BS hits on my Kingtigers and knock them out. Nobody likes losing good tanks at the hands of other Sh_ty tanks.

[ 05-05-2001: Message edited by: Johnny D. ]

[ 05-05-2001: Message edited by: Johnny D. ]

[Warmaker]

Ahhh, don't feel too bad about losing a Big Cat to a good hit. Besides, one of the main purpose for me to download beautiful panzer textures is to reward my opponent with a great looking Panther/Tiger going up in flames. My cats don't go down easy.

Anyhow, why do wargamers seem more touchy about wargames (I'm including "wargaming-light" also such as the Close Combat & Panzer General series)? IMHO, it is because of the subject matter. Your dealing with real-life events (and maybe a few hypothetical ones) and equipment/vehicles of the nations/parties involved. It's not like a Quake type of game where you can make anything up (don't take this as a hit against FPS games though) in such fantasy settings. Whenever you deal with a historical/real subject matter, there will be expectations to accuracy. Look at games like Rogue Six which used a real world theme and strove for a degree of realism (quite a new thing at the time), and it isn't even a wargame. But as you can see on this forum, wargames just seem really technical. Just look at the number of tables/manuals/books guys on this forum can find out and discuss. WWII was the most important, and most recent world event and so there's lots of documentation involved from all the nations/military services. Add to this the a growing interest about WWII in recent years (well, for the U.S. it was partly because of SPR I think).

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hannibal:

Grognard is what Napoleon called his Old Guard .This was one of the most elite units of all time .Never felt right calling myself that just because I play games and grumble <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grumble? Um, then yes, you are literally a grognard. Maybe you should've listened to Berli when he said to look the word up

[Redwolf]

Why do we play wargames? We (free interpretation of the word "we", of course) want to improve our skills, want to learn something, want to explore different way to do the same thing, tune it until it is perfect, then throw it away and tune a new way.

But the game can get in the way here. When you hit a point where you found a possible improvement in your play that would be an improvement in reality, but it turns out that it is not an improvement in the game due to some mismodeling, the most basic desire is violated.

Having said this, I don't think it is that bad. The reactions of wargamers I have seen, and I could only serious ones here, are at least constructive, if not polite as well. And BTS obviously knows this mechanism, otherwise they would not do business the way they do.

[Hannibal]

I remember playing Great Naval Battles 2 .The cv Shokaku was rated as being able to carry 72 aircraft in the game .Everything I read said it should be able to carry 84 aircraft .This really p...ed me off and affected my enjoyment of the game .Maybee in my old age I have mellowed .

[themaltese]

...all very good points. It is impossible to achieve perfection, hence it is impossible to satisfy every consumer. What sets military games apart from the others is the fact that most of them are either based on or have a setting in actual, historical contexts (such as WWII in the case of CM). Unlike some futuristic shoot'em up with phaser blasters and plasma missiles, games that have a base in reality (history) are more difficult to do a good job designing simply because the programmers are bound by historical constraints. The other programmers can ignore such contraints in that no one has actually ever seen a "Freakathion battleship with twin plasma bolt launchers, a photon battery, and Algordian defence grid" nor does anyone have any reference to this Freakathion battleship participating in "the great Galaxy War". Such programmers are free to use their imagination and can defend such with that excuse (it's MY imagination).

In the case of history, it all happened, but how each of us remembers it is another story, and THAT is what gets people up in arms when someone does a lousy job in representing history (this is true not only in the software field). For example, when I went to see "Saving Private Ryan" in San Antonio, I spoke to this old man after the movie who still had tears streaming down his face. 'Turns out he was/is a WWII vet, and was crying because the movie made him feel like he was there again. He had told me that "after seeing that Hollywood spectacle of a movie, D-Day, I made it a point to never see another WWII movie. With this one, I made an exception, and it's about damn time that someone had the guts to show the world pretty darn close what it was like".

All things considered, BTS has done a wonderful job in trying to satisfy everyone in their development of CM, and for the most part, consumers that have bought CM have been satisfied with the product.

[Hannibal]

Star Trek fans are just as bad .If you ever go on the Star Fleet command board you should see the fights between people you are TOS fans and Starfleet Battles fans . Star Trek is not real but people take it just as seriously as us history buffs

[Guest Babra]

I don't SUFFER from insanity... I'm enjoying it very much.

[BloodyBucket]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Topic: Why are war gamers such an angry bunch ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy answer. They are passionate about the subject of history and games. You don't get riled up about something you only have a passing interest in.

[kmead]

You may think that wargamers are a touchy bunch but in my observation they are frankly about average for all forum posters. I frequent quite a few different forums, ranging from cars, computers, to games. I see the behvior you descirbe everywhere. I believe it is an attitude that many people adopt given the relative anonymity of a forum. People feel little need to behave with the same decorum and respect for others they would if they were face to face. I frankly don't understand it. I know I have gotten into a few minor fracas's with Maximus, which showed my failures as much as his . I try really hard to behave and look at my post relative to the other individual. So, are wargamers really flaming a**hole posters, nope. Just average enthusiasts interested in theor hobby and getting a bit worked up. This does't make it any more pleasant to see, or to be on the receiving end of some of the flaming ripostes....

[PawBroon]

Ok guys!

Who bit Hannibal again?!

As it has been said above, eventhough some posters may be harsh or downright rude, the average respect and self restrain in that Forum is quite high actually.

As long as you don't start Threads named THE GUY YOU VOTED FOR IS A JELLYFISH or THE COUNTRIES YOU ALL LIVE IN ARE AS BAD AS THE PRESIDENT OF THAT OTHER THREAD you should be quite safe...

[lcm1947]

I am fairly new to looking on forum's and haven't seen a lot of them but I do feel that for whatever reason the regulars on this one are cooler. I believe it's because most of us know that because of this game itself and CM2 coming out that we are going to be using this one for a long long time and if we are going to be accepted and liked we need to be at least a little polite/nice and or helpful to each other. (OK, there are a few exceptions ) but knowing this makes us like kind of a family. Not that any of you guys are welcome to the house for dinner. I do have a extremely pretty 23 year old daughter and don't trust any of you that much.

[Barrold]

There are lots of products that are very complex to make and yet there is nothing in comparison to the software industry (outside of flea markets) in the level of quality control that is considered adequate for distribution.

The fact that BTS has done such a good job just proves my point in that it can be done correctly through a patient application of playtesting, feedback from demos, and a philosophy of concern for the customer.

Narrowing my point, I will say that I am making a huge distinction between a game that runs great but may need a few tweaks for a few details and those that crash repeatedly and generally don't work properly upon release. My example for the 2nd type might be Age of Sail 2 or going back a few years, Battlecruiser 3000.

Being angry for reasons of buying a shoddy product is reasonable. I think the answer to Hannibal's original assertion for the need of perfection is probably some sort of personality defect.

BDH

[Jumbo]

In my experience, when we wargamers forget to take off our game face, we can really be bears. It takes some time (sometimes) for me to un-wind because, I get so into playing this great game. I really want to do my best.

Going directly here with your game face still on and being aggressive in your messages can give people like Hannibal a misleading impression.

On the other hand, my face-to-face impressions of wargamers continues to be excellent. Wargamers, by far are very courteous and friendly in person. They go much further than other folks to make friends. I think that is true because (non-computer) wargaming is usually a social occaision.