Col Deadmarsh Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 I have yet to use one of these in a game due to pretty much everyone not wanting them in battles because of the myth surrounding them. I did a search and saw that Steve posted how they can take out TD's with ease. Now, looking at the numbers, I don't see how one of its AP rounds will pierce a TD from the front. Am I to assume it will kill it's target with a gun hit while stealthy avoiding incoming AP rounds? Or does the 7/2 only kill from the side or rear? What will happen on average if I put one up toe to toe against a Sherman or TD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: I have yet to use one of these in a game due to pretty much everyone not wanting them in battles because of the myth surrounding them. I did a search and saw that Steve posted how they can take out TD's with ease. Now, looking at the numbers, I don't see how one of its AP rounds will pierce a TD from the front. Am I to assume it will kill it's target with a gun hit while stealthy avoiding incoming AP rounds? Or does the 7/2 only kill from the side or rear? What will happen on average if I put one up toe to toe against a Sherman or TD?<hr></blockquote> Why you don't play a QB against the AI purchasing forces for both sides and look what happens? Is more fun than a write answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 If you mean the flak halftracks with the 37mm or 20mm cannon, they are generally considered to be gamey when used in games against other people. The reason is that they aren't armored at all, so tanks don't shoot AP rounds at them, they shoot HE rounds under them so the blast kills them. However, this makes them a lot harder to kill, giving them an unrealistic advantage, especially against zooks, 57mm ATGs, and similar units with very little blast. The 20mm will take out the M18 without any problem, and I think it might be able to kill the M10 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 I don't know if read this one, but any way, I think you will find what you are loking for in here http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016215 Hi Argie... How are you doing ? Hope well, been a long time By the way, wasn't with you I 1st sow this problem... [ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 Col. Deadmarsh, set up a scenario like this: Flat map, no features 1 Sd KFz 7/2 versus 3 Daimler AC's & 3 Grayhounds. (Add AC's & Grayhounds to taste) 90% + of the time the 7/2 will kill all of the Allied vehicles and not get a scratch. AP ammo is useless versus 7/2's or 7/1's Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Murrin Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 As everyone else has said, they never die. The perfect illustration of this is the Son op. Those fiendish little toys will butcher any infantry or lightly armored vehicles that have the misfortune to get in their LOS. Nathanael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 Once upon a time in a scenario far,far away there lived a Sdkfz7/2. One day while out driving he met some strangers. He reversed up and down just in front of his new friends and killed two Daimlers, one Humber, three MMG Carriers, one White Scout Car, a Jeep and occupants, a Sexton and mauled two squads of infantry all inside two minutes. For he was a magical half track impervious to AP, HE and small arms. When he'd finished introducing himself he drove away and lived happily ever after. Not one of my finest hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 LOL Doodlebug. Heck, if Wittman had had one of those things, the poor old Desert Rats would have ceased to exist, rather than been merely severly mauled. JonS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 Yep. I figure Germany would never have lost if only they could have produced a larger version carrying an 88! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted December 12, 2001 Author Share Posted December 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Doodlebug: Once upon a time in a scenario far,far away there lived a Sdkfz7/2. One day while out driving he met some strangers. He reversed up and down just in front of his new friends and killed two Daimlers, one Humber, three MMG Carriers, one White Scout Car, a Jeep and occupants, a Sexton and mauled two squads of infantry all inside two minutes. For he was a magical half track impervious to AP, HE and small arms. When he'd finished introducing himself he drove away and lived happily ever after. Not one of my finest hours.<hr></blockquote> Lol, funny one. Well, I hate doing these "experiments" but I set up some tests with 7/2's going against Shermans and TD's. 1 7/2 against 2 Allied tanks in each fight. The 7/2's were destroyed but not before the 7/2 got a few shots on the tanks. Of course they were all richochets except for one gun hit. This wasn't the best test but it gave me an idea of how lethal the truck would be against lighter vehicles. I still wouldn't put it up against a Sherman or TD though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Doodlebug: Once upon a time in a scenario far,far away there lived a Sdkfz7/2. One day while out driving he met some strangers. He reversed up and down just in front of his new friends and killed two Daimlers, one Humber, three MMG Carriers, one White Scout Car, a Jeep and occupants, a Sexton and mauled two squads of infantry all inside two minutes. For he was a magical half track impervious to AP, HE and small arms. When he'd finished introducing himself he drove away and lived happily ever after. Not one of my finest hours.<hr></blockquote> The Limey stuff sounds suspiciously like one of my earlier scenarios. Hmmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 I do believe you're right Andreas. Oh how those naughty CM player's abuse the pure science of scenario design. Once the genie's out the bottle you just can't put it back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Lol, funny one. Well, I hate doing these "experiments" but I set up some tests with 7/2's going against Shermans and TD's. 1 7/2 against 2 Allied tanks in each fight. The 7/2's were destroyed but not before the 7/2 got a few shots on the tanks. Of course they were all richochets except for one gun hit. This wasn't the best test but it gave me an idea of how lethal the truck would be against lighter vehicles. I still wouldn't put it up against a Sherman or TD though.<hr></blockquote> Try it against one of the early game Sherman fireflys (when they have no HE ammo). Matter of fact, try it against a platoon of the things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Doodlebug: I do believe you're right Andreas. Oh how those naughty CM player's abuse the pure science of scenario design. Once the genie's out the bottle you just can't put it back!<hr></blockquote> Well, I could just do a new version without the vehicle in it. I did the scenario before the bug was discovered though. Anyway, that's my line and I am gonna stick to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 It's funny, I never knew this, and have come up against one or two of these things in the past without really noticing. However, I have to say, that they didn't last particularly long on the map because they were hit by a fighter-bomber attack before I could get them into place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tanaka: I don't know if read this one, but any way, I think you will find what you are loking for in here http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016215 Hi Argie... How are you doing ? Hope well, been a long time By the way, wasn't with you I 1st sow this problem... [ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]<hr></blockquote> Hi! I'm fine. Thanks! No, wasn't with me, was against me you saw it BTW, I have played games against them and killed them without troubles. With the proper tactics, they are as vulnerable as any Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoffel Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 its very simple if I there is a chance that a german player can be attacked by planes he should be able to buy mobile FLAK nothing gamey on that,what would be gamey is that an allied player can buy planes and the german player than is not allowed to buy flak since there were no Wirblewinds around early 44 ,you must be able to buy the flaktrucks Use them in the role they are intended for and not have them move around hunting for vehicles Oh and I did a test with a platoon of these against an infantry company. They were gone very fast,60mm ,M2 andd light infantryfire kills them fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 As people said, killing them from guns and tanks is broken, see thread 017981. In addition to that, they have the extremly high hit chance of multiple-round AA guns, so they can basically will everything you have besides thick tanks. A standard Sherman is vulnerable below 500m or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 The trick to killing a 7/2 with a tank is to positively ID the sucker as a 7/2. The TAC AI will fire HE at it if it knows it's a 7/2. Otherwise, it will fire AP and, as already mentioned, AP won't kill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 "if only they could have produced a larger version carrying an 88" They did. It was based not of the Sdkfz 7 but on the larger, 18 ton Skdfz 9, the largest halftrack of WW II. Unarmored, and looks just like the 7, except bigger (27 feet long, 9 feet tall). It had 250 hp and was originally designed as a tank recovery vehicle, before the war. During the war it recovered tanks up to the Pz IV, and in pairs they could even tow Tiger Is. For this role it had cranes attached, which could lift up to 11 tons. It was also used as the prime mover for 210mm and 240mm guns. A field mod special vehicle used the cranes to place a 88mm FLAK on the rear deck, and then as "outrigger" arms to stabilize the vehicle when fired. Peiper had several of these jobs with his column in the Bulge. You will see them described in the American histories as "self propelled 88s", and they were not Nashorns. Nor in this case were the Americans wrong, and calling something an 88 that wasn't. They really made SP "portee" 88s this way, though in limited numbers. For what it is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 I have a picture of a half-track tractor mounted 8,8cm Flak from the campaign in France, and there is a clear reference in Glantz' 'The initial period of war on the Eastern Front' to two of these being with an attached Flakabteilung to (IIRC) 6. PD in Heeresgruppe Nord during the opening stage of Barbarossa, where they saw action against KV-1. Incidentally, a Lieutenant Helmut Schmidt in that unit would become prime minister of Germany 1974-1982. No idea about numbers of these vehicles though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauCoupDinkyDau Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 I took out a Firefly (Ambushed it with the 37mm flak wagon in a nice hull down position) from about 60m. It was a shot on the side armour, and I can't remember if it hit the turret or the side itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 The east front has seen a lot of more or less improved gun carriers with all calibers of AT guns - AT guns are fine, but they needed mobility. I hope we will see this vehicels in CM:BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf hates artillery: As people said, killing them from guns and tanks is broken, see thread 017981. In addition to that, they have the extremly high hit chance of multiple-round AA guns, so they can basically will everything you have besides thick tanks. A standard Sherman is vulnerable below 500m or so.<hr></blockquote> HE doesn't kill it any better, since direct hits are not modeled at all and movement of the target is not taken into account, tanks always fire on the current position, not as for armour to the position that the target will be in when the shell is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlife Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 I will second the claim that these aren't as tough as people make them out to be. Granted, certain weapon systems are at a significant disadvantage in a way that is not realistic compared to real life. But I've seen them taken out by infantry squads at ranges above 150m, and other VERY common weapon systems can take them out as well without too much trouble. As most battles should be infantry heavy to be considered realistic anyway, killing a 7/2 shouldn't be a problem. They're only broken defensively versus AP only vehicles. Offensively, they're like any other Flak/high ROF guns. (which of course many people claim to broken as well, but that's a different issue). Maybe their TacAI can be tweaked in CMBB to disengage much more quickly when under any sort of tank fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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