Tell Me Again How Great the 7/2 Is....

[Ligur]

Somehow I've been lucky against these, last time I saw one I crawled a HQ into position and directed 60mm mortar fire inside the vehicle. Haw.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by newlife:

I will second the claim that these aren't as tough as people make them out to be. Granted, certain weapon systems are at a significant disadvantage in a way that is not realistic compared to real life. But I've seen them taken out by infantry squads at ranges above 150m, and other VERY common weapon systems can take them out as well without too much trouble. As most battles should be infantry heavy to be considered realistic anyway, killing a 7/2 shouldn't be a problem.

They're only broken defensively versus AP only vehicles. Offensively, they're like any other Flak/high ROF guns. (which of course many people claim to broken as well, but that's a different issue).

Maybe their TacAI can be tweaked in CMBB to disengage much more quickly when under any sort of tank fire.<hr></blockquote>

I agree that they are not broken as in being too dangerous to others. And killing them from smallarms or indirect fire seems to work fine.

However, aimed fire HE attacks against them are very broken, for the reasons stated above, not only AP.

[Agua]

These things can be killed with .50 mg fire, close in, and by mortar/arty HE. That's about it. Zooks, AP rounds will not kill them. Deaths caused by tanks are generally from mg fire.

[Tanaka]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by argie:

Hi! I'm fine. Thanks!

No, wasn't with me, was against me you saw it

BTW, I have played games against them and killed them without troubles.

With the proper tactics, they are as vulnerable as any Panther <hr></blockquote>

Yes, I too have learned how to avoid/fight this kind of soft vehicles...

The funny part is that, after so many written topics about this in the forum, they will show up again and again... Even after some "donky" provided a link to a full 3 pages "fair" topic about the problem

Just between us...

Eu sei, eu sei... para sempre Malvinas Argentinas :cool:

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by newlife:

Maybe their TacAI can be tweaked in CMBB to disengage much more quickly when under any sort of tank fire.<hr></blockquote>

I don't believe this will be necessary as I recall Steve from BTS in a previous thread stated that they will be much easier to kill in CMBB with high explosive fire directed aginst them. My interpretation of that is they will probably die almost as easily as trucks do currently in CMBO when confronted by tanks.

Regards

Jim R.

[Juardis]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf hates artillery:

[QB]

HE doesn't kill it any better, <hr></blockquote>

Yes it does. Me and Surleyben ran a QB. He bought 6 7/2's, a Jpz IV, and 4-5 plts of guys. I bought a bunch of Shermans and a company of guys. I purposely bought the shermans because 1) I need practice using tanks and 2) tanks aren't supposed to be able to kill the 7/2.

Long story short, he won the battle, but not directly because of his 7/2's. It was because he held most of the flags and he was able to hold the flags because he had more guys than me due to the cheapness of the 7/2's.

I killed 4 of his 7/2's. 2 of them with one shot of HE from my Sherm 105. 1 of them with a round of HE from my sherm 76. And the 4th one with MG fire from another sherm 76. His 7/2's killed some infantry, immobilized one sherm 76, killed a hellcat, killed a mortar HT, and somehow killed a sherm76w (lucky shot I believe). All kills came from >400m away. When my tanks positively ID'd his 7/2's as 7/2's, they'd fire HE and would kill the 7/2. Otherwise, they fired AP and consequently, no kills.

Conclusion: Facing 6 of them is tough . Get a positive ID so the TAC AI will fire HE and yes, HE will kill them.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Juardis:

Yes it does. Me and Surleyben ran a QB. He bought 6 7/2's, a Jpz IV, and 4-5 plts of guys. I bought a bunch of Shermans and a company of guys. I purposely bought the shermans because 1) I need practice using tanks and 2) tanks aren't supposed to be able to kill the 7/2.

<hr></blockquote>

Of course you can kill them better with HE than AP, I didn't doubt that.

But HE only works if the opponent doesn't know how to exploit the real bug, that tanks shoot their HE not into the path of a moving target. They shoot at the present position. The shell will land behind a moving vehicle.

Run them like crazy just parallel behind your lines, so that the turn points are in cover and they will never been killed by HE froma tank shooting on its own. MG fire doesn't have that problem, but is ineffective at range. The attacker can manually set area fire into the path of the vehicle, that's the only way to go for tanks killing 7/2s.

To add insult to injury, the flak gun's insane hit probablity means that this 7/2 running around like a headless chicken still has a hit probablity that is way better than that of any tank.

And yes, this is supposed to be fixed in CMBB.

[Iron Chef Sakai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

If you mean the flak halftracks with the 37mm or 20mm cannon, they are generally considered to be gamey when used in games against other people. The reason is that they aren't armored at all, so tanks don't shoot AP rounds at them, they shoot HE rounds under them so the blast kills them. However, this makes them a lot harder to kill, giving them an unrealistic advantage, especially against zooks, 57mm ATGs, and similar units with very little blast.

The 20mm will take out the M18 without any problem, and I think it might be able to kill the M10 as well.<hr></blockquote>

how is that "gamey"? the 20mm/37mm were quite common on the battlefield. just because the 20mm is a good weapon, does not make it gamey. they are alot easier to take out then you think. does the king tiger have an unrealistic advantage vs the 57mm and bazooka squads as well? if you want to call something "gamey" why not pick on the panther, or tiger. compare the number of 20mm guns produced vs the number of tiger tanks produced. the only thing i find "gamey" with other people is the massive use of the puma, or any other scout car for that matter thrown into a front line combat role. just does not make much sense, but it's not a big deal to me. the 20mm was a good weapon, but i'd say its a little more vulnerable then you think. from what your describing, your making it sound like a heavy tank, wich they too are vulnerable as well, along with every other squad/vehicle you want to pick.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

how is that "gamey"? the 20mm/37mm were quite common on the battlefield. just because the 20mm is a good weapon, does not make it gamey.<hr></blockquote>

Had you bothered to read the other posts, you would have noted that the SdKfz 7/1 and /2 are not broken in being too effective with their weapons, but they are broken in not being properly killable. because of bugs in the program that BTS said are fixed for CMBB.

BTW, your shift key is broken.

[Shipmonkey25]

These will die at the sound of 50cal fire, I lost several in a quick battle to 600m 50cal fire.

[Simon Fox]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf hates artillery:

BTW, your shift key is broken.<hr></blockquote>LOL

[Iron Chef Sakai]

i don't see the big deal with tanks firing HE rounds at trucks. i don't consider trucks armored and if i was a tanker i'd fire HE rounds at it as well, saving the ap for real armored vehicles like tanks and other hard targets. i have never had any trouble taking out a truck in this game, and not to poke fun , but it does sound kind of amaturist from a quick view. i'm not trying to put down anyones tactics, but you haveot admit, it does sound funny at first glance about having a hard time taking out a truck. can you imagine Patton complaining about how diffucult the german half tracks and trucks were to eliminate? or Monty going, dammit man!! those bloody german half tracks and opel trucks have grinded my army to a hault, i'm afraid operation market garden is going to have end.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

i don't see the big deal with tanks firing HE rounds at trucks. i don't consider trucks armored and if i was a tanker i'd fire HE rounds at it as well, [...] can you imagine Patton complaining about how diffucult the german half tracks and trucks were to eliminate? or Monty going, dammit man!! those bloody german half tracks and opel trucks have grinded my army to a hault, i'm afraid operation market garden is going to have end. <hr></blockquote>

Iron Chef Sake, you moron,

I really don't know why I bother feeding information into your brain (you know that word?), but I'm drunk and there are no other intrissstinck threads here right now, so here it goes. AGAIN.

Read after my lips, slowly and make sure you get it this time: The problem in CMBO is not that you need HE. The problem is that the HE is not shot towards the target vehicle.

I am pretty sure that Patton's gunner would use the same method to hit a moving unarmoured target as to hot a moving armoured target, but unfortunately CMBO gunners assume that nothing without armour can move and that nothing without armour can be hit directly (only the floor near it is been shot at).

BTS announced that this is fixed for CMBB, so what the hell are you thinking they were talking about. Maybe that they corrected Patton's gunners?

[Iron Chef Sakai]

haha, ok so this makes me a moron how again?? you have quite the sense of humor there.

my only point is that even when the HE like you say fires under the wiley opel blitz truck, the truck will still be taken out.

mabe you need to check your ranges, crew or guns used again. i have played as the allies and i have never had any trouble firing at, and hitting the quick and elusive opel blitz.

in all my games i have still yet to see a tank "duel" a half track or truck. and also keep in mind that the somewhat shoddy allied optics were not the best tools for the gunner. i now what your thinking, that is not modeled in the game and will be in cmbb. but as an accidental added bonus it is added vs the trucks. better then nothing right? sounds good to me anyway.

if i come across any books on western allied armor stratedgy agianst their feared adversary the "Opel Blitz" i'll be sure to add it in this post for your viewing.

good luck and stand tall against those pesky half tracks!!

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

haha, ok so this makes me a moron how again?? you have quite the sense of humor there.

<hr></blockquote>

If your posts would be more amusing while ignoring everything and anybody else, things would at least be entertaining. I hope you can improbe either of that, I don't really care which

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

my only point is that even when the HE like you say fires under the wiley opel blitz truck, the truck will still be taken out.

<hr></blockquote>

Ah!

OK, first of all congratulations on your firt time of actually absorbing information from a post on this forum. Only a first step, but an important one.

Now, let's try the second step, not only absorbing one bit of the opponent's post, but the sense of said post.

It is true that the unarmoured vehicle will be taken out when a HE shell lands right below it. You got that, congrats.

However -and how prepare for an overwhelming amount of new information- as I said several times in this thread, the problem is that the probability of a direct-fire HE shell landing right below it is very low if the target is moving. Because there is a game bug in that the shooter doesn't take the movement into account. The SdKfz 7/1 and 7/2 are only overwhelmingly powerful and dangerous if used by a competent gamey player who knows how to exploit the bug. The avarage historical or mititary educated player will not be able to achive this.

In case you have mental capacity and attention span left, our next lesson will be that you don't mix up unarmoured AA halftracks, armoued halftracks and trucks. In fact, few people in this game complained that they have been overwhelmed by trucks. And there is no problem with the armoured halftracks, just with the AA 7/1 and 7/2 which are unarmoured. Because the bug only applies to unarmoured targets. I expect that I have to repeat this paragraph ten times more in this thread, but maybe you could save us the trouble by getting the idea now.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

haha, ok so this makes me a moron how again?? you have quite the sense of humor there.

<hr></blockquote>

If your posts would be more amusing while ignoring everything and anybody else, things would at least be entertaining. I hope you can improbe either of that, I don't really care which

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

my only point is that even when the HE like you say fires under the wiley opel blitz truck, the truck will still be taken out.

<hr></blockquote>

Ah!

OK, first of all congratulations on your first time of actually absorbing information from a post on this forum. Only a first step, but an important one.

Now, let's try the second step, not only absorbing one bit of the opponent's post, but the sense of said post.

It is true that the unarmoured vehicle will be taken out when a HE shell lands right below it. You got that, congrats.

However -and now prepare for an overwhelming amount of new information- as I said several times in this thread, the problem is that the probability of a direct-fire HE shell landing right below it is very low if the target is moving. Because there is a game bug in that the shooter doesn't take the movement into account. The SdKfz 7/1 and 7/2 are only overwhelmingly powerful and dangerous if used by a competent gamey player who knows how to exploit the bug. The avarage historical or military educated player will not be able to achive this.

In case you have some mental capacity and attention span left, our next lesson will be that you don't mix up unarmoured AA halftracks, armoured halftracks and trucks. In fact, few people in this game complained that they have been overrun by unkillable trucks. And there is no problem with the armoured halftracks, just with the AA 7/1 and 7/2, which are unarmoured. Because the bug only applies to unarmoured targets. I expect that I have to repeat this paragraph ten times more in this thread, but maybe you could save us the trouble by getting the idea now.

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: redwolf hates artillery ]</p>

[Iron Chef Sakai]

you're way to anal, and how are you my opponent or whatever the heck you were rambling about, i like discusions, and if you can't exchange different views without looking at it as a war you have to win in order to sutain your tiny ego then i have nothing more to say in this post.