PBEM: 3 e-mails per turn really necessary?

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Maastrictian:

And they say the search doesn't work.

Reconsidering email turn sequencing

--Chris<hr></blockquote>

Actually, Matt told us a day or so ago that this was fixed.

[Panzer Leader]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Actually, Matt told us a day or so ago that this was fixed.<hr></blockquote>

Pardonnez moi? Where was this?

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Actually, Matt told us a day or so ago that this was fixed.<hr></blockquote>

i would like to know what he said. i have been playing a lot of email games at once (more than 10) and it can get slow when you have to wait forever to watch that movie. this can get especially true when your opponet doesnt respond more than once or twice a week.

[karch]

As for Matt's post regarding something was fixed... that was regarding the search function on the BBS, not the PBEM function.

I'd bet we don't see any other patches for CMBO for a few reasons. I work for a software company creating Facility Management software and there are reasons why you don't do additional work to make programs better just because you can. CMBO is not going to be a constantly evolving program. BTS is working on new programs and seem to be focusing on spending time and money on their new game. Here are some questions we ask when deciding whether to add a feature or not.

1. Will not adding it hurt sales

2. is the application broken if this is not added

3. will adding this feature boost sales

4. how much will it cost to add

5 will we recoup our costs and make a profit from the time spent adding a new feature.

*6 Will adding a feature to an existing application take away resources from developing new programs. (what might get bumped from CMBB to put this in CMBO)

Not I've never talked to BTS about their development ideas and goals. But most people who run software BUSINESSES use questions like that to help them make decisions. I'd bet it would take far more hours to code than anyone realizes and they won't see an influx of income by all the people that refused to buy it because of the number of emails it takes to PBEM.

Really, if you ran your own business and were trying to make a profit... and remember, BTS is sinking TONS of development time and money into CMBB right now. The faster they get the game done, the faster they start recouping their expenses. They would probably not get an additional nickel of profit from adding this feature to CMBO. Not that it isn't a good idea and that they couldn't do it given the time or that they wouldn't like to.

I just think everyone has to have realistic expectations about game development, especially after the game is pretty much a finished game. I'd be very surprised if we ever saw any changes to CMBO unless BTS were convinced that some bug fixes were needed. I could be way off base here, but that's the way I see it.

scott karch

Thanks chrisl for item 6

Personally I'd rather have them spend all of their time making CMBB as good as possible. People here on the board will complain enough about what it doesn't have without having to take another feature out because of the time spent adding a feature to an existing game that is selling fine without it.

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: karch ]</p>

[chrisl]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by karch:

1. Will not adding it hurt sales

2. is the application broken if this is not added

3. will adding this feature boost sales

4. how much will it cost to add

5 will we recoup our costs and make a profit from the time spent adding a new feature.

<hr></blockquote>

6) and what cool simulation feature(s) will get bumped due to lack of time? (and would you rather have them or one fewer email per turn)

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Good to see this issue surface again. Cutting the emails with 33%, and - most importantly - see action every turn, would be a great boost.

Hopefully this option will be in CM2.

[Dschugaschwili]

karch,

As far as I understand the posts in this thread (including mine), people will be very happy if PBEM play will be changed to the faster system in CMBB. (Almost) everyone knows that BTS doesn't want to put any more work into CMBO, but I hope that PBEM play will still be possible in CMBB, and a faster system would be greatly appreciated.

Dschugaschwili

[karch]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

karch,

As far as I understand the posts in this thread (including mine), people will be very happy if PBEM play will be changed to the faster system in CMBB. (Almost) everyone knows that BTS doesn't want to put any more work into CMBO, but I hope that PBEM play will still be possible in CMBB, and a faster system would be greatly appreciated.

Dschugaschwili<hr></blockquote>

I agree whole hartedly and hope the change is included in CMBB as well. I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

karch,

As far as I understand the posts in this thread (including mine), people will be very happy if PBEM play will be changed to the faster system in CMBB. (Almost) everyone knows that BTS doesn't want to put any more work into CMBO, but I hope that PBEM play will still be possible in CMBB, and a faster system would be greatly appreciated.

Dschugaschwili<hr></blockquote>

i also agree, for CMBO, its fine how it is. for CMBB, i think we would all like to not have those "plan only" emails! i hate it when i come home to "plan only" emails and no movies! i cant watch any of my tanks explode then

[Fuerte]

The algorithm for doing each turn would be:

1. View the replay if the turn file has it

2. Plot moves for the next turn

3. If the turn file had the moves for the other player, then generate the turn

This really seems trivial.

[Fangorn]

*bump*

This topic deserves to be on top untill Steve or Charles say it is possible or not.

[Nabla]

Bump.

[Doug Beman]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>1. Player 1 gives turn 1 orders.

2. Player 2 gives turn 1 orders. Movie is calculated.

3. Player 1 views turn 1 movie and gives turn 2 orders. Movie data and turn 2 orders are sent to player 2.

4. Player 2 views turn 1 movie and gives turn 2 orders. Movie is calculated.

5. Go to step 3 with all numbers increased by 1.<hr></blockquote>

In this system, Player 1 sees Turn X movie and gives Turn X+1 orders before Player 2 has seen Turn X movie. Apart from any possibility of cheating, the mechanics of CM's coding could dictate that BOTH Players' CM copies "see" or "recognize" the Turn X movie has been viewed by BOTH players, BEFORE either player can give orders for Turn X+1.

I'm willing to bet that having a system in which a file for "Turn X Movie" AND "Turn X+1 Orders" must be sent is MORE complicated to code than a system in which each and every email sent includes only ONE file (movie or orders)

DjB

[sbg2112]

I think it was in one of the previews or something, but I thought I'd read that CMBB was in fact going to work more or less the way Fuerte describes it.

Maybe MadMatt or somebody could put this discussion to rest so that we don't spend our time designing a solution for something which has already been addressed.

[Fangorn]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

I'm willing to bet that having a system in which a file for "Turn X Movie" AND "Turn X+1 Orders" must be sent is MORE complicated to code than a system in which each and every email sent includes only ONE file (movie or orders)

DjB<hr></blockquote>

More complicated, yes. Does it means it is hard to implement? I doubt so (I have no coding abilities, so take my opinion as an educated guess). Even if it is really hard, that features would greatly improve our PBEM games, so, unless it is impossible to be done, it should be.

I know Steve and Charles must be real busy, but someone gotta answer this one for us!

[Fangorn]

*bump*

[Dschugaschwili]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

I'm willing to bet that having a system in which a file for "Turn X Movie" AND "Turn X+1 Orders" must be sent is MORE complicated to code than a system in which each and every email sent includes only ONE file (movie or orders)

DjB<hr></blockquote>

It would require a change in the PBEM file format, but not a large one as far as I can tell. Let's take an educated guess on the current situation:

Right now there are two basic types of files: movie files and orders files (based on what has to be done first when loading the file).

In both cases there is full information about the state of the battlefield included in the file, and additionally, there are the orders for every unit. If it's a movie file, there's also the information about what's happening during the minute in question.

After the movie is played, the game knows the state of the battlefield at the start of the next turn.

Now, let's take a look at what the files would have to look like under the new system.

The "movie only" file would carry over unchanged (the second player to issue the orders for the turn in question calculates it). When this movie is viewed by player X, the state of the game at the start of the next turn is known already, so it would be possible to issue the next turn's orders and include them in the file, in the most simple case by appending the file that only contains orders (which would be the next one X has to send after the movie file) to the file containing the movie, thus sending two files as one.

In short, the coding effort should be minimal.

Dschugaschwili

[Fangorn]

*bump*

[Nabla]

Periodic bump.

[Fangorn]

*bump*

[JPS]

Bump.

[Dschugaschwili]

Bump again.

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Graaf Spee:

...It has been brought up before and Steve (Charles?) said that it would require a lot of coding. Much more than changing the PBEM file format...<hr></blockquote>

Well, I don't know the internals of the CM exe, but even me as hobby programer could do this. And I can't believe it would be so much work, it's only a change of the order excuting sequence (hope this is the right English word?).

My five pence: this is my most wanted 'off-map' feature for CMBB. Beside the reduced amount of emails, it would give a much better gameflow if I can always give orders after the movie - I often need to reload the old file to remember what has happened.

About cheating : this is a bull**** argument. If someone would be able to hack the files or the exe itself, he could do it already now. Even if he can't manipulate each calculation - each second is enough. And I have (thanks god) never heard about this in CMBO.

[edgars]

Bump to top.

Because this is IMPORTANT.

[Dschugaschwili]

Bump.