More on Horses Controversy

[Goober]

Here is a footnote from "A Bridge Too Far" by Cornelius Ryan.

"Despite the confusion, Student, a keen lover of horses, took the time to note in his diary that 'these huge animals were of Clydesdale, Percheron, Danish and Friesianh types' Contrary to general belief, Hitler's armies, unlike the Allies, were never totally motorized. Even at the pinnacle of German strength more than 50 per cent of their transport was horse-drawn."

Please bring on those horses

[Mace]

The developers are well aware of the contribution horses made in getting the majority of the German Army from point A to point B but...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Posted by Steve back around January

Combat Mission is just not set up for horse. There would need to be special TacAI just for them, and that would be pretty tough to do. The modeling of the horses, graphically, would be a big undertaking. Remember, we have to program in behavior patterns. Legs don't inherently know they should stick to the torso and foot We would also have to come up with some sort of way to simulate mounts being shot out from under otherwise intact riders. With a horse "squad" unit and a rider squad unit, that would be very tough.

Because of these and a few other reasons, no horses for the Eastern Front. As the quote of mine posted above says very well, we understand that they do have a place on the Eastern Front, but it is simply too small for the effort needed to simulate them. Therefore, no dice.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mace

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: Mace ]

[Goober]

Ok then what about bicycles and motorcycles. Are we going to write off them as well?

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goober:

Ok then what about bicycles and motorcycles. Are we going to write off them as well?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Since people did not fight from them, except for motor-cycles in probably rare circumstances, they are out from what I have read of BTS' statements. The same goes for horses BTW. It would be rare to find horses in the frontline.

[Shatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Yes. Since people did not fight from them, except for motor-cycles in probably rare circumstances, they are out from what I have read of BTS' statements. The same goes for horses BTW. It would be rare to find horses in the frontline.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

---------------------------------------------

I heard the same thing as well

Motor-cyles are out, they just have no place on the battlefield, except for maybe rare recon.

How would you like to be in a motor-cycle while artillery is falling or a tank is fireing at you. :eek:

[Sergei]

In other words, you're saying that there shouldn't be any trucks or other non-armoured vehicles either, because nobody fought from them?

Logical. Not.

[New Age Santa]

actually seeing a motorcycle or even a *giggle* bicycle getting the hell blown out of em by a direct hit from a 76mm cannon would be very funny indeed!

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

It would be rare to find horses in the frontline.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the western/african/pacific fronts, yes. On the Eastern front, we have a whole nother story. Actually, I would even agree with you that on the frontlines they weren't present much, except in major offensives. However, they did conduct many combat operations behind enemy lines. Since CM models all battlefield operations (or has the ability to, at least) I see the exclusion of horses from CM2 purely as a physical problem, not a historical one. If the ability to code them in was there, Im pretty sure BTS would agree that they would be worth modeling.

As it stands though, Im still hoping to see them in CMII perhaps, with the engine rewrite. Lots of possibilities for that game, like all the fronts of WW2 in one beautiful package *drool*

[Tero]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

If the ability to code them in was there, Im pretty sure BTS would agree that they would be worth modeling.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would think the problem is not with coding as much as with personal biases. As I see it the horse units are basically no different from infantry units. They just can carry more stuff and they are a bit faster and a bit better at handling tiredness.

In essence they are basically trucks with the ability to act like infantry units when it comes to panicking under fire and tiring over extreme excersise.

What makes it SO difficult to model them using an infantry unit as a base and assigning it with a few altered specs like load carrying variables and new graphics ?

[MrSpkr]

Hey tero -

Weren't the Finnish horses and reindeer better than everyone elses?

[Schrullenhaft]

tero - actually it is pretty hard to animate the horses to the expected quality level in CM. Are you aware of any game that has horses modelled in 3D and not just animated sprites (I'm not saying that they don't exist, I'm just not familiar with what is out there) ? Another, even bigger, issue is that the horses would need a separate AI to handle their behavior correctly since they would exist as a separate entity once dismounted. All in all the current engine isn't setup to model horses correctly. They could probably be put in, but there would be so many complaints of unrealistic behavior or 'bad animation', etc. that it may not be worth BTS' time to put them in (despite the clamor for such units). Such features will probably have to wait until the engine rewrite to model correctly.

Most of my points were mentioned in previous threads concerning modelling horses in CM (some coming from Steve), so I've said nothing new here.

Aaacckk ! The quote from Steve is in Mace's post above. I really need to look over some threads again before posting.

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Snake Eyes]

Having played SL/ASL for many years, I've had the opportunity to use cavalry, as well as wagons, sledges, motorcycles and bicycles. Although each provided some interesting aspects of warfare and required the player to develop ways to use them to best advantage, I found all to be extremely vulnerable. The idea of riding any of these conveyances into battle is folly. Their best use is to move troops and weapons to jump off points at which time combat units dismount and fight on foot. Pretty much the way one uses trucks. Sure, it would be nice to see horses, et al, in CM2, but I doubt that they would add much to the game.

Are there any other SL/ASL players on the Forum willing to share their experiences?

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

I would think the problem is not with coding as much as with personal biases. As I see it the horse units are basically no different from infantry units. They just can carry more stuff and they are a bit faster and a bit better at handling tiredness.

In essence they are basically trucks with the ability to act like infantry units when it comes to panicking under fire and tiring over extreme excersise.

What makes it SO difficult to model them using an infantry unit as a base and assigning it with a few altered specs like load carrying variables and new graphics ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We all look forward to your wargame. It will no doubt adress the glaring omissions of German mapping in France, covering every nook and cranny, the fact that the Finns just could not be beaten by anyone, and horses. Good luck, although I am sure you won't need it. With your superior Finnish knowledge of coding, it will be one hell of a game, making BTS weep at how they could ever attempt to peddle the clearly inferior product that CMBO is.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

Having played SL/ASL for many years, I've had the opportunity to use cavalry, as well as wagons, sledges, motorcycles and bicycles. Although each provided some interesting aspects of warfare and required the player to develop ways to use them to best advantage, I found all to be extremely vulnerable. The idea of riding any of these conveyances into battle is folly. Their best use is to move troops and weapons to jump off points at which time combat units dismount and fight on foot. Pretty much the way one uses trucks. Sure, it would be nice to see horses, et al, in CM2, but I doubt that they would add much to the game.

Are there any other SL/ASL players on the Forum willing to share their experiences?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In SL, PL and PB, they were vulnerable (just as in real life). However, they HAD to be used in some situations.

In SL, I generally used them to shuttle things behind the lines (just as I suspect I woudl do here). However, there were scenarios replicating rear area actions and ambushes - where you didn't have the choice of whether or not to use them.

I think they should be added if possible, but agree it is probably a major coding issue.

BTW, how do you really feel Andreas?

[Harold]

Snake eyes et al,

Cavalry, motorcycles, bicycles, etc. are all extremely vulnerable in ASL as they were historically and IMO not much worth the time learning the rules. Once the shooting started dismounting was the first thing done, whether I had those units or my opponent. The CM battlefield will be just as brutal and the input by BTS in coding this stuff and the actual output is just not worth the time. Too many other things they need to get into the game.

Harold

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

BTW, how do you really feel Andreas?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, since you ask, I have a sore shoulder and it is too warm. The nice wine and the fact that I am on hols at home makes up for it though.

What I forgot to add above (silly me), no doubt tero's game will also model all US squads going down at the sound of an MG42 for ages and a day, and please note that no Finns were hurt in writing this post.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

...please note that no Finns were hurt in writing this post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's good. Hauling away the hacked up body parts in this heat was getting to be a bit of a chore.

Miichael

[The Tanklord]

Yes Tero, and dont forget to model the "Bitching german" a truly _nasty_

weapon, best used for latrin duty.

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

I would think the problem is not with coding as much as with personal biases. As I see it the horse units are basically no different from infantry units. They just can carry more stuff and they are a bit faster and a bit better at handling tiredness.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly. A human loaded down with a pack and a rifle can run, at full speed, at about 6 miles an hour max, I would guess. A horse, ladden down with packs and a 200 pound human, can gallop at over 20 miles an hour, depending on ground conditions and the fitness of the horse in question. Also, after about 2 minutes of full speed running with a pack and rifle, even the fittest of humans tire. A horse, to my best knowledge, ladden with packs and a 200 pound human can gallop for upwards of half an hour or more, once again depending on terrain conditions and the fitness of the animal in question.

Oh, and common, admit it, in the back of your mind somewhere, in the dark subconsciosness known only as the inner tero, you know you always wanted to see a cavalry charge.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

What makes it SO difficult to model them using an infantry unit as a base and assigning it with a few altered specs like load carrying variables and new graphics ?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The seperate coding first of all. Also the fact that using a human model to represent cavalry won't appeal to many, visually speaking.

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

I would think the problem is not with coding as much as with personal biases. As I see it the horse units are basically no different from infantry units. They just can carry more stuff and they are a bit faster and a bit better at handling tiredness.

In essence they are basically trucks with the ability to act like infantry units when it comes to panicking under fire and tiring over extreme excersise.

What makes it SO difficult to model them using an infantry unit as a base and assigning it with a few altered specs like load carrying variables and new graphics ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Y'all figured it out. In fact horsies and motorcycles were in the original game engine, working just perfectly (as one would expect), and were very pretty to watch, too. Then Steve & Charles asked me what my opinion was, and I asked them to take them out because I simply don't like them. You see, I was out walking with my horse in the deep woods one day, pushing my motorcycle, and I heard an 8mm bolt-action rifle shot nearby. I went to ground promptly and stayed there for eight years and two months.

While I was face down in the dirt the motorcycle fell on top of me and the horse ate my shoes, nibbling my toes off in the process. So as you can see, I have a well-deserved hatred for both horses and motorcycles and can't stand to have them in any game of any kind ever.

So it's pretty much my fault.

-dale

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem:

Y'all figured it out. In fact horsies and motorcycles were in the original game engine, working just perfectly (as one would expect), and were very pretty to watch, too. Then Steve & Charles asked me what my opinion was, and I asked them to take them out because I simply don't like them. You see, I was out walking with my horse in the deep woods one day, pushing my motorcycle, and I heard an 8mm bolt-action rifle shot nearby. I went to ground promptly and stayed there for eight years and two months.

While I was face down in the dirt the motorcycle fell on top of me and the horse ate my shoes, nibbling my toes off in the process. So as you can see, I have a well-deserved hatred for both horses and motorcycles and can't stand to have them in any game of any kind ever.

So it's pretty much my fault.

-dale<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[gatpr]

I like horses and dogs too. I've posted about this one before. I know BTS has many defenders I'm one most of the time myself, but I honestly think they're making a mistake by excluding horses. That's as critical as I care to get. The last time I had the audacity to suggest something on a non BTS forum I got sandbagged by a squadron of self-appointed defenders of western civ. At least BTS considers the possibility of change.

[Michael Dorosh]

Anyone who thinks they know what a horse can or can't do in battle hasn't read FACE OF BATTLE by John Keegan. The part about cavalry charges was very enlightening - he tells us that you can't get horses to penetrate lines of infantry, using Waterloo and modern sources to discuss it. It's the only intelligent discussion of what a horse is actually capable of doing in a battle that I've ever read.

Anyone who thinks they know what a cavalry charge is like should read this book; it was quite eye opening to me.

[patboivin]

My CDN$0.02 (which isn't worth much) is that horses existed during the war, therefore, if CM wants to be a historical simulation, they should be in there.

I think that is the main reason ASL put them in is: ASL was a historical simulation wargame, and the period they covered had horses, so they put them in. Mind you they didn't have to "code" the horses, they just produced another set of cardboard chits. That's much less trouble.

I agree that horses might turn out to be irrelevant to most scenarios, they were in ASL too. But ASL gave you the option.

The game did that, they included partisans, bicycles and sidecars, all sorts of little things that broadened the scope of the game. That's what made it engaging.

Besides, horses aren't "cool" to play with. Better to include tanks that didn't really make it to the front, especially if the coding involved is not that tedious.

ASL didn't include a Maus though so I had to make my own chit for that one... but it only took me about half an hour to decide what the armour ratings were, etc. and then draw a chit and cut it with a pair of scissors. It's another story to have to code an entirely new class of units.

Now one thing that ASL didn't do, was train artillery and carpet-bombing. Now we'd be talking!

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Anyone who thinks they know what a horse can or can't do in battle hasn't read FACE OF BATTLE by John Keegan. The part about cavalry charges was very enlightening - he tells us that you can't get horses to penetrate lines of infantry, using Waterloo and modern sources to discuss it. It's the only intelligent discussion of what a horse is actually capable of doing in a battle that I've ever read.

Anyone who thinks they know what a cavalry charge is like should read this book; it was quite eye opening to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read and enjoyed the book, Michael. However, we must remember that the Germans no longer formed up in neat little square formations upon seeing cavalry. If they had time, they grabed the MG42's, but no squares. So cossacks, when they had the advantage of surprise, too the liberty of riding in upon confused masses of germans and sabering/shooting them. The Germans did not form tight lines, so the horses had no trouble riding in between them, as they did with charging a solid mass of bodies during Waterloo or other battles from the age of muskets.

On a lighter note (well, its pretty gruesome actually), Italian troops did form square once under a certain commander in Italy (or perhaps this was Africa, Im getting this info from another thread) to recieve armored cars. You can imagine the results.

Since you mention a book for reference, let me mention a new book titled "Russia's Heroes". It has a chapter devoted to cossacks. I read some of it in the book store (didn't have the dough to buy the book, but I plan to soon) and it had an interview with a cossack general. Also several eye witness accounts of cossacks raiding German supply lines and detachments on horse back. One account mentions a cossack regiment having to cross a frozen river during night time to get behind German lines. Another account tells how the cossacks were taught to "...slice the invader from the shoulder to the groin with one's saber, as in days of old...".\

When I buy the book I'll post some more accounts. Only read a few pages in the book shop.