The underappreciated PSW 234/1 20mm AC

[JasonC]

The underappreciated PSW 234/1 20mm AC

I have found this a very capable vehicle. Many probably take Pumas or SPW-251/9s instead, so I thought I'd discuss some of the merits of the historically common 20mm AC, used in the recce battalion of Panzer divisions.

Many points make them effective. First, the 20mm main armament is extremely accurate, because it is a high MV weapon and also because it gains from burst firing. And its rate of fire is up to twice that of larger cannons, in terms of frequency of CM shots. Together these give an excellent "quick draw" fighting capability, especially against light armor. The high accuracy can also be exploited by shooting through trees, with only marginal LOS lines (dim blue). It can also be used for "snapshot" engagements, meaning into and out of LOS relatively quickly (30 seconds is typical). You will get hits in that period, and less accurate guns will often miss in reply.

Just as important, the ammo load is enourmous - 120 bursts - which allows even this light weapon to chew through MGs and infantry by cumulative volume of fire. This is especially useful after enemy armor has been dealt with. The secondary armament is a single MG, but unlike many other vehicles, it is coaxial and has a large ammo load of 96 shots. This means it has the range, accuracy, and sustained firepower to make a difference against infantry, were e.g. most German assault gun MGs do not (with only 24 shots, or remotes with very limited range for close defense only, etc).

The front armor is sufficient to protect against 50 cals, but nothing larger. And the sides are vunerable even to 50 cals. Which just means you have to be careful rushing into the unknown with them - infantry should go first. When you hear the distinctive throaty chatter, just face it and hose until the fire stops, before proceeding. The 20mm will also KO most towed guns in a minute or two, usually suppressing the crew enough in the meantime that you are not in great danger from the replies. Obviously you want to spot the gun first, and if possible approach it from a direction it is not facing, to ensure you get off the first several bursts before it is pointed in the right direction.

Heavier armor - even the front of Stuarts - will deflect the small 20mm AP. But you will often get damaging gun or track hits even in such cases. But it is not worth risking the vehicle to get such shots. If he comes to you, they are a modest means of self-defense. But mainly the 20mm is an anti-infantry, towed gun, and light armor weapon. A useful trick to help with heavier armor is to start out with a Panzerschreck team riding on the rear deck. Drop it into cover you hide behind, before popping out to the other side. The schreck team can pass through the cover and get the first glimpse of the field beyond - using "sneak and hide". If you see an AFV, the PSW can button it with a burst, distract it, and then reverse, while the Schreck stops hiding.

The Pz II Lynx has many of the same nice features, and thicker 20mm side armor. But it carries only 2/3rds the ammo load for the main armament, and more important, it used scarcer "armor" category points, while the PSW uses the typically more abundant "vehicle" category. It also isn't as agile, with only about 3/4 the hp to weight ratio, and with much less in the way of maximum road speed. It still works about as well as the PSW, you just can't afford spending armor points on them most of the time.

Many might think the heavy 75mm armored car, only 1 point more, is better in all respects. It is true the 75mm is a better AT weapon, when you get a few HEAT rounds. (Those are actually better than 50mm AP everywhere but point-blank). But the 75mm is not nearly as accurate. Against infantry, the 75mm HE is much larger of course, but you get only 1/3rd as many shots before running dry. 1 75mm in an AC mix can be useful, pulling it out for AT situations beyond the capabilities of the 20mm. But often you have armor point tanks or assault guns for that role anyway. As for SPW-251/9s, as halftracks they can't use "hunt", and their front armor won't stop 50 cal rounds. Both are serious weaknesses for an anti light armor or anti soft target support weapon.

To get the most out of them, you need the right mindest about their use. Which is not hotrodding it into enemy territory to spot things by drawing their fire. Advance methodically, a position at a time. Work the ammo load, neutralizing individual enemy positions in sequence, before advancing into LOS of the next. Go for marginal LOS lines, not places wide open in every direction, then "walk" your visible locations over the enemy position in front of you, after each position is silenced. Reverse out of LOS completely every 2-3 minutes, and come back from a new angle, exploiting your speed wholly inside safe ground, to change the direction your fire comes from.

Your infantry should be up to 150 yards in front of the PSWs, although occasionally they will draw alongside each other. The PSWs should not be going first. Do not treat them as expendable scouts, but as long distance runners, anti-soft-target AFVs. A live PSW with ~80 20mm bursts left can do a heck of lot of damage after the board is clear of enemy armor. It can deal with enemy MGs in particular, leaving your limited infantry ammo for the enemy regular squad infantry - and give you fire superiority over the latter, too.

You can get a pair of them for about the cost of one extra Panzergrenadier platoon. Try that subsitution once, with the above advice about their role in mind. You may be surprised how much they can do for you. I hope this is interesting.

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

I hope this is interesting.<hr></blockquote>

As always, yep, very.

[Redwolf]

Amoung 20mm vehicle choosers the usual discussion is whether to use

the 20mm halftrack or the 234/1.

The 234 is much more expensive, which is especially bad in case it is

being knocked out. But it has a number of advantages, as you say, the

234 can carry troops that make a nice team with it. It is faster at

least on roads (didn't test for mud or snow). And the ammo load in

the halftrack is not only restricted, but unpleasently small. It

seems too many players think of thin armour like this as expendable

asserts and rush them in, using careful and safe movement only for

real tanks (if at all...). In that case you want the cheap vehicle,

the real question is, do you want these tactics?

As for the effectivness, 20mm vehicles ruin the day of any allied

halftrack lover, and the PSW can attack them more freely than the SPW

due to front armour and .50cal issues. I won't start speaking of

Wasps. Facing a certain player on the tournamenthouse ladder I would

never go without 20mm vehicles, otherwise you could as well do a

barbeque of your infantry yourself or not buy any in first place.

Killing single infantry from a wide distance (i.e. artillery spotters)

also requires flak weapons.

What about the rear-facing driver? Does the CMBO drive faster in

reverse than other vehicles and/or does it see better to the rear?

That would come in handy in peek'n'reverse tactics.

The gun-armed halftracks can use "hunt".

[Andreas]

According to Lexikon der Wehrmacht on PSW, 200 of these PSWs were built. There were however 381 of the 20mm armed older PSWs Sdkfz.222 left in 1945 that are not modeled in CMBO, so I think you could just excuse yourself by using the 234/1 as an abstraction of these.

Not sure about the accuracy of the info on that site, but the guy who does it seems quite thorough.

[Warmaker]

Nice insight, I've never usually used those vehicles. Will give them a little whirl to play with.

[M Hofbauer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf:

What about the rear-facing driver? Does the CMBO drive faster in

reverse than other vehicles and/or does it see better to the rear?<hr></blockquote>

yes

FWIW

[L.Tankersley]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

As for SPW-251/9s, as halftracks they can't use "hunt", ...<hr></blockquote>

That's not true, is it? I'm pretty sure any vehicle with functioning gun armament (non-MG) can hunt.

[Pity I can't think of any armored MG-armed vehicles named after dogs - then I could say "that dog won't hunt."]

[Terence]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

[Pity I can't think of any armored MG-armed vehicles named after dogs - then I could say "that dog won't hunt."]<hr></blockquote>

The Greyhound has a machine gun. Try that.

[Agua Perdido]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terence:

The Greyhound has a machine gun. Try that.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, but it has a cannon main-gun armarment. That dog will hunt.

[Terence]

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Terence ]</p>

[Terence]

Originally posted by Terence:

nothing. never mind.

[Col Deadmarsh]

I think the 20mm vehicles are most useful when combined with the 75mm vehicles with the HE rounds. The 20mm suppresses the enemy infantry to give the 75mm vehicle a non-retreating (and usually) pinned target to shoot at.

[ParaBellum]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

Many might think the heavy 75mm armored car, only 1 point more, is better in all respects. It is true the 75mm is a better AT weapon, when you get a few HEAT rounds. (Those are actually better than 50mm AP everywhere but point-blank). But the 75mm is not nearly as accurate. Against infantry, the 75mm HE is much larger of course, but you get only 1/3rd as many shots before running dry. <hr></blockquote>

20mm with 90 rounds and blast value of 6= 540

75mm with 40 rounds and blast value of 34=1294

So for supporting my infantry I would prefer the 75mm variant any day. OK, the 75mm isn't as accurate as the 20mm but at shorter ranges (<300m) it will fairly accurate knock out nearly all allied vehicles. I've knocked out a lot of Shermans with 251/9s.

And usually I have my tanks and AT guns to deal with enemy armour. Those HEAT grenades are for just in case...

[gredeker]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

I think the 20mm vehicles are most useful when combined with the 75mm vehicles with the HE rounds. The 20mm suppresses the enemy infantry to give the 75mm vehicle a non-retreating (and usually) pinned target to shoot at.<hr></blockquote>

I'd agree with this. I tend to go with a 50/50 split (20/75mm) when I'm buying units for a QB, and the fact that they're burning vehicle points instead of armor points is a big plus.

[Keith]

Interestingly I have read that the 250/9 was the prefered scout vehicle for the Germans on the Eastern Front because of the (lack of) road net. The 250 series can manuever cross country much better than the armored cars.

[D'arcy Montague]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ParaBellum

So for supporting my infantry I would prefer the 75mm variant any day. OK, the 75mm isn't as accurate as the 20mm but at shorter ranges (<300m) it will fairly accurate<hr></blockquote>

The 75mm 234 is a fine vehicle, and indeed the gun has alot more bang. But it does lack a turret, which limits it's playing style to the point & shoot method adopted with assault guns.

The 20mm on the other hand can 'dance'. Which makes it perfect for baiting your opponent with. In a recent game I had a 20mm 234 in a small village shooting up my opponents hapless infantry. All the while, his Churchill's stood by within 150-200m, but were unable to intervene for fear of the german infantry's AT arsennal.

I was not able to 'dominate' the village area with my armour until much later on in the game. But I was able to operate the 234 right up there with my infantry from the second turn onwards. By the end of the game it had expended 3/4 of its ammunition and racked up an impressive tally of kills! Based on this extremely enjoyable experience I would definately consider buying it again, and throughly recommend it to others.

[D'arcy Montague]

Wow, that reads like an infomercial testimonial.

[Scott B]

It is a nice vehicle. Watch out for light mortars, though - as with all open topped vehicles, it can be useful to keep their movements unpredictable.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the Sdkfz 222 armored cars in CMBB, too.

Scott B.

[manchildstein (ii)]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

That's not true, is it? I'm pretty sure any vehicle with functioning gun armament (non-MG) can hunt.

<hr></blockquote>

yes the 251/9s and 251/8s can hunt. i believe the 250/9s and 250/8s can hunt too..

all that aside i really like the 234/1. i too use it as an abstraction of a 20mm armored car... it could be a 234/1 or one of the 20mm models not represented in cmbo.

a recon company with 22 vehicles:

2 command cars

4 platoons of 5 vehicles

i like to use some combination of 234/1 and 250/9s in the first three platoons, then make the 5th platoon 234/3 or 251/9s.

i figure that a panzer lehr or other elite panzer division would probably have the armored cars and

the lesser panzer divisions would have more haltracks in the companies of their recon battalions.

late war would have more halftracks, even in the 'elite' divisions.

a company of recon vehicles, especially if they have a platoon of 75mm vehicles included - can be very formidable. throw some infantry in spw 251/1s (or trucks) and perhaps an FO and you nearly have an all-purpose, mobile force. aside from slugging it out with shermans, the german recon detachment can successfully fight most enemy forces.

for my money there's nothing better than a scenario with u.s. cavalry versus german recon...

andy

[Patriootti]

Let me solve your argument! (I'm Finn by the way!)

You have argued about PSW with 20mm and HT with 20mm

but... WHAT ABOUT LYNX????????

Its cheap

fast

good armor when compared to those 2

it has 60he rounds!!

so i think the winner is.... LYNX!!!

[PiggDogg]

A nice combination: 20 mm armored car with 75 mm armored car. The 20 A/C quickly surpresses and kills Allied halftracks & armored cars. The 20 A/C then surpresses Allied infantry. The 75 A/C then whacks the Allied infantry & can support the 20 A/C in the 20's vehicles killing duties. :eek: :eek:

I like that combination (20 & 75 A/Cs).

Jason, good analysis again to get the thread started. Everyone else, thanks also.

Cheers, Richard :cool: :cool:

[JasonC]

Some have suggested the 250/9 as a cheaper substitute, and some have suggested the Lynx. It is worth examining these alternatives.

The attraction of the 250/9 is its price tag - only 37 points. If you plan to get the vehicle killed quickly on nearly suicidal recon work, this can make sense. Or if you only want it to counter a couple of enemy light AFVs. But for the general infantry-hosing role, it won't work.

The 250/9 has less than 2 minutes ammo for the 20mm main gun, and 6 minutes of MG ammo. 2 minutes of 20mm is enough to break one MG position, or to pin two in succession, briefly. But some of the ammo is AP, and presumably you will want something for light armor targets. The realistic firepower you are going to get out of a 250/9 is the suppression of one infantry point target, and maybe a little ducking elsewhere from MG spraying.

It also has a slow turret, and dies from all angles to 50 cal fire, which most US light armor carries. So it is unlikely to win the recon fight for you. And it doesn't have the ammo endurance for dealing with infantry. All it will do is discover some enemy positions by drawing fire, probably dying in the process. If that is the mission, send a half-squad.

The attraction of the Lynx is its superior side armor. It is strong enough to withstand 50 cal fire beyond about 100m. It has 4-5 minutes of 20mm HE, plus 2-3 minutes worth of AP, which is sufficient for all the anti-light armor work you are likely to get out of it. The MG ammo is substantial, enough for 15 minutes. As a result, the Lynx can perform the desired functions. Use the coaxial only to suppress most infantry targets, and unleash the 20mm HE only on the MG nests you want to knock out. You can probably get through 2 of them., perhaps a third with help from the coaxial or some AP fired at infantry.

The problem with the Lnyx is not in the vehicle itself, but in CM quick battle budgeting. It requires armor category points, not vehicle category points. If you have leftovers after buying the main battle tanks or TDs you want, then fine. But often you would have to give up a main battle tank to add 1-2 Lnyx. (Pairs are more realistic, incidentally). And they do not have the heavy AT capability of a main battle tank or TD. 2 Lynx for an infantry platoon can be a good trade. 2 Lynx for a Jagdpanzer or Panzer IV, especially if it leaves you inferior to your opponent in heavy AFV weight, isn't as good a trade.

Compared to the above, the 20mm PSW costs slightly more than the Lynx, but not seriously so. A pair is 16 points more than a pair of Lynx, which is often a budget rounding error, at most one infantry team. The PSW has 6-7 minutes of 20mm HE, 9 minutes of 20mm all told. It has 16 minutes of coaxial ammo. It can easily suppress numerous infantry targets, and can afford to fire at least the coaxial every turn you are in contact. It is faster and more agile then the Lynx. Its only real drawback is the vunerability of the sides to 50 cal ammo beyond 100 yards.

On the whole, the Lynx is a fine subsitute if your armor budget can afford it. The 250/9 is not. And since your armor budget usually can't afford it, the PSW is often the better choice for a 20mm vehicle. As for having 75mm vehicles work with them, that can indeed work well. One PSW 234/4 armored car with a pair of the 20mm vehicles, for instance. (Better front armor vs. 50 cals than the 75mm 251/9, only 6 points more). But often you can let your heavy AFVs from your armor budget, perform the same role, without buying a third lightly armored vehicle to get a 75mm gun.

A useful discussion - thanks for the various corrections, suggestions, and amplifications.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]</p>

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Patriootti:

Let me solve your argument! (I'm Finn by the way!)

You have argued about PSW with 20mm and HT with 20mm

but... WHAT ABOUT LYNX????????

Its cheap

fast

good armor when compared to those 2

it has 60he rounds!!

so i think the winner is.... LYNX!!!<hr></blockquote>

The Lynx is a nice tank. Hell, I'd buy more of them myself if it weren't for the fact that they take up valuable armor points. Now I don't know about you but a lot of us play Combined Arms forces because it gives a more realistic force mix--otherwise everyone would be buying 50 HMCs and a crapload of Ubertanks. The thing about playing

Combined Arms is that you can get your 20mm vehicles elsewhere and spend your precious armor points on other stuff you need...like Ubertanks.