Pausing between movements in CM2:BtB

[The Commissar]

I remember this was a major limitation in my eyes for CM1. I always felt (and still feel) restricted by the fact that one cannot issue a pause between movement orders. For those who do not automatically see the value in a feature such as this, here is an example:

A Platoon has to advance over rough terrain to take out an entrenched MG 100 metres away.

Squad A is assigned to Run 20 metres to the right while Squads B and C provide covering fire. After running those 20 metres, Squad A could be assigned to Pause movement for say, 30 seconds, to provide covering fire for the advance of Squad B and C. After the 30 seconds have elapsed (and hopefully after the other 2 squads reached cover), Squad A advances again only to stop closer to the MG, and repeat the procedure as much as necessary. Technically, you can do all this now if you alter the movement turns each 60 second break. However, this has movement penalties assigned to altered movement, while the "pause between movement" option would allow you to plan such a complex maneuver in one go, thus avoiding movement penalties. Properly timed, it could prove very effective in a skilled player's hands.

Basically, I dont see anything wrong with such a command, from design or realism standpoints. One can easily imagine the Lt. instructing his men to "Provide covering fire until the others make it to safety, then advance yourself and they'll do the same for you".

So, BTS, is this in CM2?

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

[The Commissar]

Bump

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

So, BTS, is this in CM2?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope so.

[KiwiJoe]

Same for afvs too.

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Same for afvs too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point, second that.

[Guest Mad Gunman]

Really great idea! Should be implemented(bump)

[Porajkl]

Agree, absolutely. I hate when my tank hunts to the top of the hill and then (because I also gave the order to reverse) backs up, even if he sees enemy tank, without firing a shot. If I could be able to issue an hunt order, after this a few seconds of pause and only then reverse back, I could destroy the enemy tank, or at least have more time to see the battlefield... And don't tell me that this is also possible now, when timing is right (on the end of the turn). It takes just too much an effort and sometimes I can't afford (not enough turns) to do this. With optional pause beetwen orders would be so much easier. And also more realistic.

[Doug Beman]

Think about the act of giving orders for one minute's worth of action to a tank crew in real life. Would you REALLY be able to say "move to that tree, then pause for 15 seconds, then move behind that house, then pause for 15 seconds, then creep forward and shoot at any enemy tanks you see"

?

I think not. If we're looking at the realism aspect, the process of giving orders would be more, IMHO, like "Okay, hook around behind that tree, move to that house and take up a fire position facing thataway."

Even the act of dictating exact spots for turns/end points can be construed, from an extreme PoV, as unrealistic. BTS set a line between realism and abstraction, and decided that to deny players the ability to set exact move points was too far into realism, but that dictating multiple timed pauses is too far into abstraction.

DjB

[Porajkl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

Think about the act of giving orders for one minute's worth of action to a tank crew in real life. Would you REALLY be able to say "move to that tree, then pause for 15 seconds, then move behind that house, then pause for 15 seconds, then creep forward and shoot at any enemy tanks you see"

?

I think not. If we're looking at the realism aspect, the process of giving orders would be more, IMHO, like "Okay, hook around behind that tree, move to that house and take up a fire position facing thataway."

Even the act of dictating exact spots for turns/end points can be construed, from an extreme PoV, as unrealistic. BTS set a line between realism and abstraction, and decided that to deny players the ability to set exact move points was too far into realism, but that dictating multiple timed pauses is too far into abstraction.

DjB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you, but AI simply isn't smart enough to perform such difficult orders like "lurk around the house, pay special attention to that hill and if the enemy comes shoot and immediately retreat behind the house". That's why is IMHO good to issue a few simple orders (like: move fast, pause, hunt, pause, reverse...) and they could be acomplished. And probably a lot of people would like that. The ones who don't want this option, just wouldn't press pause so often. But I think that if we had this option, everybody would use it. But I can already hear the magic word micromanagement...

Just my thought.

[KiwiJoe]

"Move to that hill crest, have a quick look around, then get the hell back into cover!"

Sounds pretty realistic to me. Even if they limited it to 1 pause command inbetween orders.

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

Think about the act of giving orders for one minute's worth of action to a tank crew in real life. Would you REALLY be able to say "move to that tree, then pause for 15 seconds, then move behind that house, then pause for 15 seconds, then creep forward and shoot at any enemy tanks you see"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. What I would really be able to say if the AI was intelligent enough to recieve precise orders and then execute them, would be something like

"Move to the tree, look around for targets. Don't hang around longer then is necessary for you to get off a shot or two. Speed behind that house and repeat. Then I wamnt you to advance slowly, take your time, and get the jump on any enemy armor. Move out!"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

I think not. If we're looking at the realism aspect, the process of giving orders would be more, IMHO, like "Okay, hook around behind that tree, move to that house and take up a fire position facing thataway."

Even the act of dictating exact spots for turns/end points can be construed, from an extreme PoV, as unrealistic. BTS set a line between realism and abstraction, and decided that to deny players the ability to set exact move points was too far into realism, but that dictating multiple timed pauses is too far into abstraction.

DjB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's bull. So I guess you would call Lowski-Tophat unrealistic also. I mean, that basically revolves around 2 or more tanks cresting a hill, pausing to get off a shot and speed back down while the other tank(s) crest the hill from another direction and do the same thing. Although the tactic is possible in CM now, it is not there to full potential, because it takes several seconds for a tank cresting the hill to see the enemy and fire off a shot. With a pause order, for tanks with slower turrets/less experience would make this tactic viable.

Oh, and I suppose my previous example is also unrealistic. Not realistic at all for a commander to tell his men to provide cover fire for the advance of another group, and then advance themselves when that group is in position to provide cover fire.

The AI at the momeent cannot handle such complex assignments. I can't tell my TacAI to "perform Lowski-Tophat" or "Provide fire and advance in leaps and bounds". So we have to settle for the next best thing. It's no more "micromanagement" then plotting waypoints, splitting squads, and pointing out precise targets. For you see, in CM, we are not just playing the part of Regiment/Battalion commander. We are directing the acction of every lowly Sargeant. As such, I think directing pausing in between turns seems pretty realistic.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Some would argue that giving orders once per minute is ridiculous (though I am not one of them). I would have to say that I am not in favor of this being implemented, though, because it seems to me that you folks are just trying to make too many things happen too quickly.

I understand your motives and I don't think its a "realism" problem. Seems to me that the one minute breaks have about the right feel for getting palatable results.

Probably a moot point anyway. I doubt there will be any timing code changes before CMII.

[The Commissar]

There needs to be no changes in the code. We can already issue a pause order. If we can issue it before a move, how hard can it be to issue it after one or in between one?

Its not about making things happen quickly, its about making more complicated maneuvers possible, without wasting time.

[The Commissar]

Bump

[Moon]

Even nowadays, coordination of troop/unit movements is not and cannot be coordinated down to a mere second. Even not if YOU are sitting in the tank yourself. A lowski-tophat, as you call it, is a leapfrogging tactic timed to several minutes per cycle, for vehicles and for infantry alike. You'll have a hard time trying to explain why you should be able to do it within 15 second timeframes in the game...

[Wilhammer]

How I get around this, sort of.

The dancing soldiers of course. That's right, I plot them to waypoints that are safe, and if I need to delay a guy, I plan for by plotting very small moves, around 4 directions, and then plot back to the path.

Each turn, I just subtley adjust course as needed, even changing speeds, so that I can co-ordinate movements.

Dancing soldiers happens when you need to slow some unit's progress, so you have them back track, step sideways, and then back on course.

[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Wilhammer ]

[Grisha]

Was just thinking about this in a solitaire game this week. Hope it happens in CMBB.

[KiwiJoe]

Well if you want to get down to realism, the whole of Cm is way off the scale. 1 god like commander who can control all of a battle groups commands across 1000's of metres down to mere seconds. A real commander would tell his units where he roughly wanted them, what they were to achieve (hold the bridge, take back the village) and that would be about it, till reports came back of progess (perhaps hours later) and adjustments were made. Wouldnt make for much of a game.

I think the current system is limited to the point were its too obvious what is going to happen. IE 50 secs into a turn an enemy tank crests a hilltop and stops. During my planning phase I target it with an AT gun which is in LOS KNOWING it has to stay there for at least 13 secs (reg) before it can move. Thats bull****. With a pause order I wouldnt know if it was 1 sec away from retreating back or not, thus I may expose my gun for nothing. Thats just 1 example of how the really limited orders avaiable make for a very predictable game.

While Im on it, I think we really need a withdraw command for afvs, the same as the current infantry 1. Its unrealistic for a piece of light armour to be stuck in full view of a tiger for 13 secs before it can withdraw away. Sometimes the AI does pick up the rains and do this for you, but not always. Would be very handy to be able to retreat armour stuck in a no win situation before it gets needlessly blown away.

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

Even nowadays, coordination of troop/unit movements is not and cannot be coordinated down to a mere second. Even not if YOU are sitting in the tank yourself. A lowski-tophat, as you call it, is a leapfrogging tactic timed to several minutes per cycle, for vehicles and for infantry alike. You'll have a hard time trying to explain why you should be able to do it within 15 second timeframes in the game...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. However, I have no desire to coordinate movement to precise delays. What I wanted is an ability to issue a delay as an order, between movements. This isn't so I can pull off some super micro-managing trick out of my arse. It's so I can execute the sort of maneuvers I described previously.

Also, I completely missed what you were trying to say about lowski-tophat. Were you saying its unrealistic to apoint precise pause times between advancing and retreating for my forces? If so, see above. If not, Im sorry, I didn't understand.

Wilhammer,

Thanks for the tip. I use it sometimes myself. However, Im hoping BTS will implement pauses to eliminate this sort of thing. I mean, how annoying and time consuming is it to issue movement orders back and forth a meter at a time?

[The Commissar]

Bump

[Username]

What Commisar is describing is a drill. Its a larger version of "cover me while I move out/got you covered".

I was thinking about orders limitations. What I would want is the more orders a platoon as a whole gets, the longer the delay before they kick in. This simulates the coordination/communication/etc. to get a drill going. KISS (keep it simple stupid) becomes a viable tactic. Better troops with better HQs would have shorter delays.

The delay would be in addition to other delays like being out of C&C. So if you want a 'kick-off', use troops from the platoon that are in C&C.

The pause amount could be variable also. Better troops having less variance. In the common vernacular, their **** snaps.

Just an idea.

Lewis

[The Commissar]

Not a bad idea at all, Username, I like it and it seems to make sence. SO a BUMP to get us back to the top! Up, up and awaaay!

[The Commissar]

BTS, oh BTS...

[Vergeltungswaffe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Its not about making things happen quickly, its about making more complicated maneuvers possible, without wasting time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not in any way, shape, or form, a flame or an attempt to disagree. It just cracked me up, though, that when I said I thought maybe people were trying to do too much, too fast, you responded with the above. Without wasting time? So, in other words, more quickly, right?

Again, not making a deal out of it, just finding humor in life!

[The Commissar]

*sniff* All I ever wanted is a wee little reply from BTS *sniff*

Till then. Bump!