Infantary against tanks

[mg42 gunner]

Hey guys justa couple questions about this. I think unarmed infantary are to weak agaist tanks unarmed mean no charges zook or rifle grenades. for example a imoblie tiger in open flat ground two full regualr rifle 45 squads surrounded it at point blank there was no incomming fire on them. They threw grenades at it all day no knoc kout where has in real life climb on top and stick the grenades or fire into open tanks slots killing vre you guys agree.

[EricM]

I would have to say that destroying any type of tank without anything but grenades to be very hard. There are many examples of immobile shermans being attack by Japanese units without anti-tank weapons and not being destroyed.

As to shooting the crew through the vision ports, I think this is more Hollywood then real life. All a commander would have to do is use their periscopes to see what was going on (OK, I don't know alot about German armor, so I don't know for sure if Tigers had periscopes). Anyone dumb enought to open something while surrounded should be shot by their own crew.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Eric

[Cpl Carrot]

The throwing of granades in Cm is meant to represent the men climbing onto the tank and trying to put on down the hatch. The firing into the vision slits is fantasy AFAIK. I believe they had bullet proof glass covering them.

[Andrew H.]

It's hard to take out tanks with just grenades. There aren't really any open parts of the tank, and the hatches lock from the inside.

There's a well-known case of a KV-2 holding up an entire German armor division for a day - basically, they had to use engineers with demo charges, and they were only able to immobilize it. I think they took it out the next day with an 88 FlaK.

[Doug Williams]

Mg42,

This was gone over before about a year (?) ago. For what it's worth, I agree with you. It seems to me that AFVs are a bit too hard for close assaulting infantry to knock out.

[Panzer Leader]

Blah blah blah, yeah maybe its hard, but when you finally do take out a tank by prying the hatch open with a rusty bayonet and clocking the crew with brass knuckles, it is so... satisfying.

[Doug Williams]

I once saw (on one of those real police chases shows) a tank with a berserk driver get close assaulted by about three police officers with handguns. They killed the guy in about 20 seconds...

[Cpl Carrot]

That was after he had bellyed the thing on the median barrier though was it not? also I doubt the 'madman' remembered to close all the hatches and lock them. BTW I am not defending BTS's modeling system - I just play with what I am given

[Doug Williams]

That's true, you got me.

Tell ya what, anybody who doesn't think close infantry assaults in CMBO are a bit underwhelming, make a scenario with a 20x20 patch of grass in the middle of a forest. Put a tank (regular) in the middle of it. Give the other side a platoon (regular) of infantry with no rifle grenades, panzerfausts, gammon bombs or anything like that. Play the scenario. You play the infantry. Try to kill the tank. Let us know the results.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Hmmm, I think that test what I think would happen in real life.

Flesh vs. hardened steel

no questions?

[JasonC]

I presented a detailed examination of this in the case of US infantry a little while ago, by using Medal of Honor citations. I found 20 that involved infantry fighting tanks. Only one of them involved KOing a buttoned tank without special AT weapons, and that was a Japanese tank KOed with a WP grenade. Almost all the successful tank killers used a bazooka.

In fact, "arming himself with a bazooka..." is the characteristic comment you find. In a few cases rifle grenades did something. And in some an unbuttoned tank, or a bailing crew, was involved, often one already immobilized by zooks or other AT weapons.

KOing tanks with a bayonet, a crowbar, a handgrenade, a 45 automatic, strong language, rolling gas cans, etc are for Sergeant Rock comics. Sergeants with Medals of Honor did not manage it, let alone garden variety privates. Infantry can KO tanks in close assault but they need some form of effective AT weapon to do it.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Blah blah blah,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you have time to post here but not to send a file? Are you one of those 'fade out when losing' types or what. It would be nice to get the war over with by Christmas

[l3w53r]

Thing is, this is a game, and somewhat hurriedly done at that.(I read somewhere that Big time was on a deadline)

Theres a lot of things missing in it that could be done in real life.like having a sharpshooter aim at the driver instead of the commander;have allied infantry pick up the panzerfuasts of dead or captured germans(theres an account in citizen soldiers of a tiger being knocked out by african-americans w/ a panzerfuast);having elite infantry dressed in enemy uniform;a realy hyped up Flamethrower guy who makes a 10m dash from a woodline to the rear of a bunker;have infantry shove destructive things into AFV exhaust pipes(i.e.gas+grenades;molotov cocktails.wp-grenades...);having crews(afv,bunker) shocked and defeaned by a 14" round;field gun crews remanning their abandoned weapons after being confrontd by a commander;or even mortars firing indirectly or having the martar's seargants detached to spot for the mortar; the list goes on and on and on, like I said it's a game,were not talking about real innovative humans here, just plane by the book AI.

but I do hope that infanty can at least disable tanks with close assualts on cmbb.

and also thought Saving Private ryan was accurate,and theres a guy firing into the driver's vision port there.

oh yeah, I'd just wish I could order my infantry to put some mud on 'em tank periscopes,I dont think they have wipers for those.=)

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by l3w53r:

Thing is, this is a game, and somewhat hurriedly done at that.(I read somewhere that Big time was on a deadline)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would not call 3 years "hurriedly done".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>but I do hope that infanty can at least disable tanks with close assualts on cmbb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can do this already in CMBO. Much more frequently than the KO.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and also thought Saving Private ryan was accurate,and theres a guy firing into the driver's vision port there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It wasn't. As someone else pointed out, the vision blocks were fitted with bullet proof glass.

[ 10-18-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[vskalex]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by l3w53r:

Thing is, this is a game, and somewhat hurriedly done at that{SNIP}Theres a lot of things missing in it that could be done in real life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot the contradiction? I must say that CMBO is the most realistic wargame I've ever encountered, but

of course BTS cannot implement everything that can happen in a real life situation. Could you please name me one (1) game that incorporates all factions of real life?

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by l3w53r:

Thing is, this is a game, and somewhat hurriedly done at that.(I read somewhere that Big time was on a deadline)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an astonishing insight! Why don't you enlighten us about the nature of your relationship with BTS, or your other qualification for making that statement are?

[tss]

l3w53r wrote:

like having a sharpshooter aim at the driver instead of the commander

I've read of exactly one case of this happening, and I'm not certain whether the report was reliable or not. (In any case the tank in question was a T-26 that had an open vision block).

having elite infantry dressed in enemy uniform;

This would work really well in a game where both commanders have absolute knowledge about their own units. Not to mention that it wasn't exactly a common thing to do.

even mortars firing indirectly

They can do that if there's a leader spotting for them.

the list goes on and on and on

Hey, what about officers driving enemy tanks away by throwing Cognac bottles at them? It certainly happened at least once (Wiking division, Fall 1942, IIRC) so it should be included. BTS, do somefink.

oh yeah, I'd just wish I could order my infantry to put some mud on 'em tank periscopes,I dont think they have wipers for those.

I've read about cases of infantry blinding tanks with smoke grenades. I've read of cases of infantry blinding tanks using Molotov Coctails (and other similar devices). I've even read of cases of infantry blinding tanks by felling small spruces on them. But I've never come across a description of infantry blinding tanks using mud.

- Tommi

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

What an astonishing insight! Why don't you enlighten us about the nature of your relationship with BTS, or your other qualification for making that statement are?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Careful germanboy, he could have been a beta tester. You never know.

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by l3w53r:

(theres an account in citizen soldiers of a tiger being knocked out by african-americans w/ a panzerfuast);<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And everyone knows that Steven Ambrose never gets things wrong...

[Doug Williams]

So, Mr. Johnson and JasonC, you contend that 40 combat infantrymen armed with rifles, automatic weapons, and hand grenades, and swarming all over a tank have virtually no chance of doing any damage to it or it's occupants? If that is actually the case, then CM does indeed model close infantry assaults correctly.

I don't suppose grenades would do any damage to the tracks, or that one of the infantrymen climbing on the tank could manage to fire his weapon into a vision or machine gun opening.

I'm not saying it should be easy to take out a tank in this manner. It just seems to me that the game models it to be so difficult that it is never worth trying.

Anyway, it's not that big a deal in the game, because you almost always have someone with a panzerfaust, rifle grenade, gammon bomb, or zook.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Williams:

So, Mr. Johnson and JasonC, you contend that 40 combat infantrymen armed with rifles, automatic weapons, and hand grenades, and swarming all over a tank have virtually no chance of doing any damage to it or it's occupants? If that is actually the case, then CM does indeed model close infantry assaults correctly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, infantry with no AT weapons do have a fair chance of immobilizing a tank in CM. KOs are rare but not impossible.

The one area that is likely unrealistic is that open topped vehicles are also hard to KO by close assault. Hopefully that will be fixed in CM2.

[PJungnitsch]

Ran into this just now on the tanknet forum, thought it may be of interest:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My father, who was in the Tank Destroyer command during the war, years ago looked at one of my tank models (a StuG with scheurtzen [sp?] screens ) and was prompted to tell me of the training he had received for use of bazookas against German armor.

According to him, they had been taught that bazooka rounds could not penetrate German armor frontally, nor through the screens on the flank. So two tactics were in order.

1) The prefered deployement for a bazooka man was in a deep foxhole. He was to allow the German tank to overrun him, and then rise and shoot it from the rear. My father did not think too highly of this tactic. (You want me to do WHAT?!? )

2) If the German tank was on a road, a frontal shot could be attempted by shooting downward ONTO the road, with the intent of skipping the round up into the belly of the panzer. My father seemed to think THIS was a perfectly reasonable tactic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Hannibal]

:eek:

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Williams:

So, Mr. Johnson and JasonC, you contend that 40 combat infantrymen armed with rifles, automatic weapons, and hand grenades, and swarming all over a tank have virtually no chance of doing any damage to it or it's occupants? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even the "swarming over" gives the infantryman too much credit: the *deck* of a Sherman is 6 feet tall. So even climbing on the deck is something of an accomplishment. And if that turret is whipping around, you'll end up back on the ground with several broken bones.

The most common method you hear about for non-AT weapon equipped infantry to knock out a tank is by pouring and/or igniting gasoline on or in the tank. Sometimes the smoke gets sucked into the ventilation system, which can have real effects, or which can fool the tankers into thinking that the tanks is really on fire and cause them to abandon it.

[Michael Dorosh]

I agree with JasonC on this one; the Medal of Honor citations say volumes about how anti-tank feats were performed.

One has to realize that tanks were a rarity on the battlefield - not so in CM. If we ever get a true campaign game, it would be interesting to see how often tank vs infantry encounters would happen (if this was accurately modelled).

One is encouraged to pick up any decent regimental history - American or Commonwealth - and see how often enemy tanks were encountered.

We did discuss this before - Markus will remember the conversation I think (seems ScoutPL didn't like the idea that the Germans were trained this way) but the Germans were trained to combat tanks in all sorts of unlikely ways, I think my contention was that Allied troops received little training of this type. Doctrine for all armies was to let anti-tank guns deal with enemy armour in any event.

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]