A call to all German wargamers!

[Bruno Weiss]

Maximus wrote:

If I was a German citizen, I would be ashamed of myself for allowing this censorship to exist.

Well I ain't German, I'm American. And I'm a little ashamed that someone hasn't told the Navy that Japan surrendered a few years back.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by illo:

Wouldnt it be time for people to accept history and not push it under the carpet? Seems like people never learn from history and end up doing same stupid things again and again. I don't mean to offend anyone... it's just my wiev.

Yes - unfortunately it is wrong. Please go and reread M.Hofbauer's post with the actual text of the laws. To spell it out for the dyslexic and hard of reading:

The use of the Swastika is allowed in Germany for educational purposes - nothing is pushed under the carpet, au contraire.

Got it? There - was that so difficult?

M.Hofbauer - I am quite sure that EU law would not take precedence in this case. Also, the server question. Yahoo just lost a case against the French state, and they had to amend their systems/offerings, because of illegal (in France) Nazi stuff that was offered for auction in the US. A few years back, Compuserve was hit (the German head manager was actually arrested) for distributing child pornography, even though they had no control over it. The issue for BTS is not what they could do, but what they are allowed by German law to do, never mind the potential absence of consequences.

Edited for inability to deal with HTML tags...

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 02-13-2001).]

[CavScout]

Originally posted by illo:

If you look this objectively youll find

it utterly irrational. For example, why soviet flag isnt in list of banned symbols?

Fact is Stalin murdered much more people than Nazis. ..far over 10 million.

Reason is Soviets won the war so they are Good, Gerries lost equals BAD.

just my opinions.

You forget that these are "Gerries", some would say German, laws made by Germans for Germany. It has NOTHING to do with who won and who lost, as those who "lost" have made the rule themselves.

[Chupacabra]

I always get a kick out of people who state that the German restrictions on Nazi symbology is an attempt to cover up or forget the past.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the national Holocaust Memorial scheduled to be built smack on the Unter den Linden? I also seem to remember a neighborhood in which, on every street sign, one of the Nürnberg laws is posted along with the date it was adopted.

From what I understand, the majority of Germans grow up knowing quite a lot more about their past than the majority of Americans, or of most nations that I know, know about theirs.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Hakko Ichiu]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

The use of the Swastika is allowed in Germany for educational purposes - nothing is pushed under the carpet, au contraire.

Got it? There - was that so difficult?

Strictly speaking, this is censorship as it is a prior restraint on speech. Such a law would not pass Constitutional muster in the United States, which is perhaps why Maximus gets so worked up about it. In the U.S., the antidote to bad speech is not censorship, but more speech, as it is assumed that bad speech will eventually lose out in the marketplace of ideas. Whether this is true in all instances is, of course, open to debate.

I would prefer free speech to be protected absolutely from government interference. As a fine German poet once said, "Dort, wo man Bücher Verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen". That having been said, I recognize both the different legal traditions underpinning law on the Continent, as well as the special circumstances surrounding the German Constitution. I frankly do not know how I would have reacted if, during my student days in Germany, I had seen numbers of Aryan youth walking around in Nazi attire, especially as I would have been bereft of the protections of the 2nd Amendment.

Up to 4 Groschen at this point.

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Ethan

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"We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech." -- Dr. Kathleen Dixon, Director of Women's Studies, Bowling Green State University

[illo]

Sorry i was going a bit OT. (was talking generally)

Sorry Germanboy i didnt mean to make you angry

You say I am wrong. Well lets put it this way. Our thoughts differ. I dont insisnt being right it's just how i see cencorship. It's only opinion im not fanatic about it

[This message has been edited by illo (edited 02-13-2001).]

[M Hofbauer]

Germanboy,

the idea of EU precedence is an interesting question, but note it was not brought forth by me, but suggested by M.Bates.

Criminal Law itself is not within the competence of the EU, but remains with the member states (as of now).

However, indeed, if a company could show that this german law (§86a StGB) hindered their free trade of their products into germany as provided by article 28 EU-Treaty, then the precedence could take place. Please note thought that the precedence of the EU is still not fully accepted by the german constitutional court; they reserve the right to step in if they see basic foundations of the german constitutions infringed upon by EU (commission/court) decisions (wouldn't apply in the case of §86a being nullified by the EU court). Art. 28 Freedom of Trade indeed is _the_ EU basic right, the right which lies at the core of this whole (stupid IMHO) idea of a European Union.

I always faked out / never paid attention in European law lessons cause I hate it so much so I don't really know if this freedom of trade within the EU applies to EU-outsiders exporting into a EU country. Personally, I doubt it.

However, it would take someone to challenge the §86a StGB before the EU court in Luxembourg. This is likely to take several years. Besides, again I am not sure if an american company has active legitimation (=can sue) for Art. 28 in this case.

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"Im off to NZ police collage" (GAZ_NZ)

[russellmz]

hey, um, guys, maybe this censorship post can be put in the general forum, cause, like, i think BTS would prefer to get legal info, rather than a debate on censorship laws...just my 2 cents

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russellmz,

Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ.

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[Vinci]

BTS - it seems that you have got a lot of reactions from the gamers in germany.

Since I have some german family, maybe I qualify to answer as well.

Have you had any problems to date? The current material does include the odd word about Waffen SS and related topics. Nothing that would frighten me, but if you believe some of the comments, could maybe be borderline.

I guess you may know how many games you have sold to germany. If the number is significant and you have not had any reaction, it is at least a sign that there is nothing dramatic happening.

Not what you would call an ironclad guarantee... but maybe it helps

Vinci

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

Strictly speaking, this is censorship as it is a prior restraint on speech.

Ethan - no argument from me, it is censorship. Please go back to read what Illo actually said. Provided here:

Originally posted by illo:

Wouldnt it be time for people to accept history and not push it under the carpet? Seems like people never learn from history and end up doing same stupid things again and again. I don't mean to offend anyone... it's just my wiev.

Some people want to hide swastika like it never existed, some people want to burn US flags...list goes on and on. It's sad many governments support that kind of things.

Illo - this is what you said, and it is wrong. Wrong in the sense of facts are wrong, not opinion is wrong. The Swastika is not banned outright in Germany, and to suggest that the ban has anything to do with pushing things under a carpet is again wrong.

The only trip that nobody in my high-school could opt out of was to Dachau. Education on the Holocaust is considered of prime importance. I don't deny for a second that the ban of the symbols, and the fact that denying the Holocaust is a crime are censorship. Whether they are benign censorship is another argument. It is there for a reason, and successive (fairly elected) governments and judges (who are ususally quite conservative in Germany) have established that reason. If you don't like it, you are welcome to set up a party campaigning for the abolition of the law. That would not be illegal.

So - I don't have an issue with people saying it is censorship. I have an issue with people jumping the gun and accusing the German political system of pushing Nazism under the carpet.

I say it again - read the respective paragraphs that M. Hofbauer provided.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Pak40]

Steve,

I don't quite understand why you are concerned with this topic. CM is a mail order game that is sold from outside the borders of Germany. It would seem that the German government would have no control over the content of your game, correct? Germany couldn't possibly ban your product from being ordered by mail or internet, could they?

Or is this breaking some sort of international law?

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

However, it would take someone to challenge the §86a StGB before the EU court in Luxembourg. This is likely to take several years. Besides, again I am not sure if an american company has active legitimation (=can sue) for Art. 28 in this case.

Sorry for the misattribution.

The way it could work is:

1. Find a country inside the EU where Nazi symbols are not illegal.

2. Find an importer as EU agent in that country.

3. See the BPS index your product in Germany.

4. Have the importer (an EU company) take them to the EU court for harming your business.

5. Win your case many years (and legal/managerial cost) later (as you will).

6. Start exporting.

7. Wait to see if the German constitutional court steps in to cashier the judgement of the EU court (odds are even whether it will step in).

In short - BTS is right to ask about this and try to avoid getting imbroiled with the BPS (who are a bunch of loonies, IMO). Makes more business sense than becoming a martyr.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Thanks for all the good information. It is still a tricky issue because of the rating board having so much authority, but we are still convinced that using Waffen SS as we have it in CM now (i.e. no SS symbols) is OK.

BTW, Maximus... have you ever been to Germany? You can see naked people, both men and women, on regular television. In the US you can not because it is STRICTLY censored. If I were an American citizen I would be ashamed. Oh wait... I am... OK, then I guess I will just be understanding that each country has its own particular hangups and that the USA does not have the greenest grass on this good Earth.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

Vinci wrote:

Have you had any problems to date?

No, no problems as of yet. However, we have been discussing this issue with someone (not hostile to us at all, BTW) who has contact with a German lawyer who thinks we might have a potential problem here. Mind you, I think this is just typical lawyers tell you the thing that will most likely never be challenged instead of what is generally allowable. Legal advice is very often divorced from reality in my humble opinion

Pak40... German law is German law. It is no more legal for us to sell a neo-Nazi game, complete with lots of illegal symbols, phrases, etc. to a German citizen IN Germany than it is for someone to sell an American citizen child pornography. In both cases the person making the purchase would be the one in trouble, not us, as it is easy to prosecute someone you can physically arrest using local police.

Steve

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Pak40... German law is German law. It is no more legal for us to sell a neo-Nazi game, complete with lots of illegal symbols, phrases, etc. to a German citizen IN Germany than it is for someone to sell an American citizen child pornography. In both cases the person making the purchase would be the one in trouble, not us, as it is easy to prosecute someone you can physically arrest using local police.

Steve

I see. But I wonder how the government would ever know if anyone bought a copy? I guess they would look for the package with BTS stamped on it :}

[Lutz]

BTS,

here is my view of the problem:

1. Mods containing swastikas and the like: You can't be held responsible for mods made and distributed by independent persons, but you can get in trouble if you promote the use of these mods. So if MadMatt, who is a BTS employee, distributes mods which contain illegal material, he and the leaders of BTS (i.e. Charles and Steve) could be in trouble, should you ever visit Germany, because you have supplied illegal material to Germany.

2. Waffen SS:

You can probably use the term Waffen SS, but not the SS runes. But you have to be careful not to glorify them in any way. This also means that the Waffen SS shouldn't be portrait as any kind of elite unit in your product. If however the only difference between Waffen SS and other Axis units are their uniforms (without forbidden symbols) and TOE, you shouldn't have any problems.

But since this is a rather delicate topic, I wouldn't rely on the advice of all us laypersons here, but seek professional advice. You might for example want to contact the German embassy http://www.germany-info.org

and see, if they can give you some assistance.

Oh, and Steve: Thanks for the reference to the censorship on American TV. I was tempted myself to say something to that effect on several occasions on this board, but I didn't want to start a flame war

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Lutz

Former Senior Junior Member

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by Pak40:

I see. But I wonder how the government would ever know if anyone bought a copy? I guess they would look for the package with BTS stamped on it :}

No, the government won't try to track down the copies of CM shipped to Germany. At least as long as it isn't forbidden. But I know a case of a German computer gaming magazine where one issue was seized because it contained an ad for an indexed game.

On the other hand, I don't really see a problem with the German jurisdiction here. Of course I don't have any numbers here (probably even BTS doesn't) about how much of an impact the indexation of CM would have. I haven't seen any ads for CM in Germany yet, so that's not a problem. CM isn't sold in stores at all, so no problems here too. And how many people who bought CM are younger than 18? Don't know, but I guess the majority of them is older.

One thing is sure though: The use of nazi symbols being allowed for documentaion purposes will not help a computer game in any way. The use of the term "Waffen-SS" alone probably won't get it indexed though (just my uneducated guess).

Dschugaschwili

[RMC]

Indizierung or "indexing" is not going to be a problem for CM. BPjS was not set up to stop games and publications from using NS symbols. The issue is the usage of the symbols in a manner that may violate German law which is much more serious than the indexing of a game. Usage of these symbols would not get CM indexed but banned. There is nothing illegal about making a game that ends up on the index of publications that are deemed harmful to children.

Based on the games currently on the market in Germany, CM would not be indexed because it does not promote violence, promote racial hatred, subvert social values or glorify war. Indexation would mean nothing to CM as it now stands because it is not sold in stores. The assumption the BPjS makes is that any game purchased over the internet is the purview of the parents and parents can buy any indexed game for their kids if they so desire. The intent behind the law that created the BPjS is that kids are not exposed to harmful content without parental involvement/supervision. Think of like an R rating on a film in the US.

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Gesetz über die Verbreitung jugendgefährdender Schriften

(in der Fassung der Bekanntmachung vom 12. Juli 1985 (Auszug))

§ 1 [Aufnahme gefährdener Schriften in einer Liste].

(1) Schriften, die geeignet sind, Kinder oder Jugendliche sittlich zu gefährden, sind in einer Liste aufzunehmen. Dazu zählen vor allem unsittlich, verrohend wirkende, zu Gewalttätigkeit, Verbrechen oder Rassenhaß anreizende sowie den Krieg verherrlichende Schriften. Die Aufnahme ist bekanntzumachen. ...

§ 3 [Verbreitungsverbot an Kinder und Jugendliche].

(1) Eine Schrift, deren Aufnahme in die Liste bekanntgemacht ist, darf nicht

1. einem Kind oder Jugendlichen angeboten, überlassen oder zugänglich gemacht werden,

2. an einem Ort, der Kindern oder Jugendlichen zugänglich ist oder von ihnen eingesehen werden kann, ausgestellt, angeschlagen, vorgeführt oder sonst zugänglich gemacht werden, ...

§ 4 [Verbreitungsverbot außerhalb von Geschäftsräumen].

(1) Eine Schrift, deren Aufnahme in die Liste bekanntgemacht ist, darf nicht

1. im Einzelhandel außerhalb von Geschäftsräumen,

2. in Kiosken oder anderen Verkaufsstellen, die der Kunde nicht zu betreten pflegt,

3. im Versandhandel oder ...

vertrieben, verbreitet oder verliehen oder zu diesen Zwecken vorrätig gehalten werden. ...

§ 5 [beschränkung der Werbung].

(1) bei geschäftlicher Werbung darf nicht darauf hingewiesen werden, daß ein Verfahren zur Aufnahme einer Schrift in die Liste anhängig ist oder gewesen ist.

(2) Eine Schrift, deren Aufnahme in die Liste bekanntgemacht worden ist, darf nicht öffentlich oder durch Verbreiten von Schriften angeboten, angekündigt oder angepriesen werden.

(3) Absatz 2 gilt nicht für den Geschäftsverkehr mit den einschlägigen Handel sowie für Handlungen an Orten, die Kinder oder Jugendlichen nicht zugänglich sind und von ihnen nicht eingesehen werden können.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Maximus:

Censorship in ANY form ANYWHERE is wrong, no matter how you slice it!

If I was a German citizen, I would be ashamed of myself for allowing this censorship to exist.

I hate to run this by you, but censorship is practiced everyday her in the good ol' US of A. here's an example for you... look at US TV commercials... then watch some European commercials. There are many valid reasons for censorship.

[ParaBellum]

I absolutely agree with RMC.

The content of CM as it is now is absolutely no problem here in Germany.

As long as you don´t glorify Waffen-SS-units and dont´t use forbidden symbols (swastikas, ss-runes,...) you`re on the safe side.

The main reason for games getting on the index is when they brutally show the killing of humans with lots of blood and gore (e.g. Kingpin).

Simulations and strategic games therefore do not pose a problem, as long as they comply with the aforementioned points.

I remember that ten years ago even "Gunship" and "Silent Service" were set on the index. I bought my copies from GB and Microprose went to court in Germany. I think they`ve won.

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[Hakko Ichiu]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

I hate to run this by you, but censorship is practiced everyday her in the good ol' US of A. here's an example for you... look at US TV commercials... then watch some European commercials. There are many valid reasons for censorship.

Sorry, Berli, but it's a bit more complex than that.

The Courts differentiate between "commercial" and other forms of speech. Since quite early in this century, "commercial" speech has been deemed unworthy of the same level of protection as other forms -- one of our resident barrators could no doubt cite you the relevant decisions.

Also, IIRC, because the broadcast spectrum is a public good, it is liable to regulation by the FCC which seeks to uphold "community standards" wrt obscenity. Interestingly, one can see occasionally see nudity on PBS, presumably because anything on PBS is presumed to be "art". Cable television, on the other hand, runs on a private network, and I believe that they can show whatever they want; certainly, some channels do. I don't know if "basic cable" is subject to FCC obscenity codes, but certainly one can see uncut, R-rated movies on some of our local basic cable channels.

Then again, the German idea of marketing is to show naked breasts next to every product.

Up to 6 Groschen now. I think by 10 this thread'll have jumped to the General forum.

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Ethan

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"We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech." -- Dr. Kathleen Dixon, Director of Women's Studies, Bowling Green State University

[Guest Big Time Software]

Ethan,

You and Berli are saying the same thing. US television (broadcasted) is, by any definition, censored. Things have been loosened up over the years (at one point you couldn't even hint of intercourse, for example) and some think that this is a bad thing.

I personally think some censorship is necessary, because commercial enterprises have a VERY poor record of acting responsibly according to social norms. To me there is little difference between a chemical factory polluting ground water to avoid costly disposal and some TV station that pushes nothing but sex and violence to get higher ratings. Both are causing harm to society, and they don't give a rat's ass because they are making money at it. This makes other entities, who are or would like to be responsible, change their methods to compete with the unscrupulous. And thus society is dragged down by the lowest common denominator and enter the last days of Rome.

And before anybody flies off the handle about this statement... what I said is about the GENERAL trend. Obviously things like sex and violence have their place and should not be totally banned. I am talking about balance, and mass market forces don't give society a choice if left unchecked.

And before anybody strongly disagrees... go to your friendly neighborhood software store and tell me how many wargames you see there The same market forces that are trying to tempt us all with nudity and blood are the same that have all but killed off innovation in gaming. Unless you are talking about innovating new ways to shape the female body or spatter blood.

End of rant

Oh... Ethan, basic cable (and additional "packages") operate under similar rules as network stations. There is more flexibility, though. Apparently after 10pm they can get a bit more "vulgar". Look at Comedy Central and FOX FX (or whatever the non-network station is called) after 10 and you will see that ALL of their "sexy" and "potty mouth" programs are on at that time.

You can, of course, purchase other services that have few, if any, rules. These range from uncut movie channels to hardcore porn. But that is up to the cable/satellite service. There are plenty of cable services, from what I understand, that don't offer even the softcore porn channel Playboy.

And all of this is regulated by the FCC.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 02-14-2001).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Again, thanks for everybody's responses. The issue is most likely moot, for a bunch of reasons (RMC listed a bunch), but it was good to discuss it with a few more people who know at least a little about the laws and how they are actually implemented.

Guess I should close this one up as it can only stray more off topic

Steve