Admiral Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 P.S. -- Anyone know of any (English) books about the Blue Division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusm Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 The Italians should definatelly be in. They were very active on the Stalingrad front. The Italian cavalry especially should be in . As for Finnish names Steve got mine for the Finns. Should be very historical . Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Admiral: I guess it is an absurd lot to ask of BTS but I'd also love to see the Blue Division in CM2. If I remember correctly the German officers responsible for taking them to Russia detrained them something like 300 miles away from the front and forced them to march there on foot. Also, I think they were the best-liked of the occupying forces because they treated civilians well. At least, that's what I read in the old Time-Life WWII series about them. But Fernando knows more than I do. B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You're right. It seems Russians liked them. I watched a documentary some weeks ago about the division and some Russian women still remember some Spanish songs learned when they were children To include them in CM2 should be very easy. They were dressed and armed by the Germans so they looked like its German comrades. We only need Spanish names (i.e Sargento Hernández ) and voices for them and a sleeve shield with the Spanish colors. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Admiral: P.S. -- Anyone know of any (English) books about the Blue Division? B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hitler's Spanish Legion : The Blue Division in Russia by Gerald R., Kleinfeld. Unfortunately it seems it's out of stock now. I read its Spanish version some years ago and IMHO it's a very good book about the subject. The Amazon.com address for this book is: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809308657/qid=965648065/sr=1-31/103-8775417-8985417 Fernando J. Carrera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 If all kinds of ethnicities and Mongolians and Martians are going to be included in CM2, are they going to find a "Romanian equivalent of Fionn" for Romanian OOB and so on? Steve and Charles surely have all the necessary data about west front, but do they have accurate information about the structure and armament of Bulgarian cavalry squadrons in 1942 and other such important subjects? Of course, since CM1 has sold so well, they can hire the chief conservator of Bukarest National War Museum to do the OOB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reckall Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 If they portray the Italians, that they should portray the "Alpini" (mountain troops) as a different branch (like "american airborne"). They really, really kicked a**, and at Nicolajevka, during the 1943 retreat, destroyed five fresh russian rifle divisions kicking open the gate to safety for the rest of the (not so illustrious) Italian Army. This led to the famous Pravda's communique "We are authorized to state that Italian's Alpiny are the only enemy army never to suffer defeat in Russia" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwcanuck Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 If the Finns are going to be CM2 will see them fighting the Russians and then against the Germans in the closing days of WW2? Or, will it be difficult to have them switch sides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rwcanuck: If the Finns are going to be CM2 will see them fighting the Russians and then against the Germans in the closing days of WW2? Or, will it be difficult to have them switch sides?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Also the eastern Axis-members started making armistices late in the war which led to conflicts with Germans, so it would be very useful feature. I don't think that is difficult to create. The game just allows certain OOB's to be played against some others, so now it would have to change this arrangement a bit. Well... it just would have to make sure that Finns and Hungarians couldn't fight against eachothers or like that (while it could be interesting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusm Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 The solution to this would simply to create a "eastern subdued nation" bloc on the USSR side. They more or less used Russian equipment after they surrendered if I'm not mistaken. Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il carabiniere Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't think the Italiens did much on the Eastern front except get captured and sent to turn into frozen popsicles in Siberian POW camps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am sorry Mr. Kommissar but here you got it wrong. FYI, Italians were there and they actually performed a few very remarkable feats of arms, such as the last ever cavalry charge by "Savoia cavalleria" in summer 1942 (defeating the Russian infantry!) as well the Alpini's breakthrough from the encirclement at Nikolaijewka. As a matter of fact, the 8th Italian Army (named ARMIR or "Armata Italiana in Russia"), together with nearby German divisions including Panzer Divisions, had to hastily retreat from their position on Don river, risking total annihilation, due to a disastrous collapse in the front line to their left, which was defended by a Romanian Army (I do not have history book next to me, I think it was the 3rd Romanian Army). The Russian offensive which routed the Romanian Army was actually a strong diversion attack aimed to stop Von Manstein's attempt to take relief to the besieged German 6th Army in Stalingrad. ------------------ S.Ten.® Lunari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 This topic has been covered before...do a search. For those interested in Spainish troops that fought for the Reich try this: http://www.geocities.com/visantain/ I'll be happy if partisans are included... ------------------ Webmaster http://www.trailblazersww2.org http://www.vmfa251.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Devils Posted August 7, 2000 Author Share Posted August 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Admiral: P.S. -- Anyone know of any (English) books about the Blue Division?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I beleive Osprey put a book out on them. ------------------ I'm sorry, we haven't the facilities to take all of you prisoner. Was there anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red Devils: I believe that the Hungarians had a "fast corps" on this front. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As far as i know the "fast corps" was a slovakian formation in action during 1941. During the German summer offensive 42 the slovakian 1st "fast" division joined the 5ss "Wiking" division to form form a panzer corps. So we might see some Slovakian troops too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted August 7, 2000 Share Posted August 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat: As far as i know the "fast corps" was a slovakian formation in action during 1941. During the German summer offensive 42 the slovakian 1st "fast" division joined the 5ss "Wiking" division to form form a panzer corps. So we might see some Slovakian troops too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Hungarian Fast Corps was the "Mobile Corps" (one cavalry and two motorized brigades) It was sent to Russia in June, 1941. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BasilD Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 Ah yes no bulgarians, perhaps it was romanians then? I remeber some distinctive black and orange counters that weren't hungarian nor italians. ------------------ As the victors define history, so does the majority define sanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 Thanks for the book link, Fernando! Do you remember the title of the documentary you saw? I'd sure like to watch that if it were on. Cheers, Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 Personally, I'm still hoping for the Brazilian Expeditionary Force to be included in CM3 (or is it 4? --- the one covering the Med!) And no, I'm not kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 rwcanuck wrote: Or, will it be difficult to have them switch sides? I recall that Steve once wrote that with the current code base it is very difficult to do that. I don't know what they plan to do in the future. There weren't too many battles between Finns and Germans that would make good scenarios. For most part of that war Germans were on constant retreat and fought only few delaying actions and Finns were content to follow them. However, it wasn't a fake war as some sources claim. It started as one but transformed into a real war pretty quickly. Off my head I can remember only two battles that could make interesting scenarios: Suursaari island and Tornio. I mentioned the Tornio battle, which was the only tank battle of the war, in the H39 thread. The Suursaari is an island in the Gulf of Finland that was strategically important as it blocked the route to Leningrad. After Finns had made armistice with (not surrender to) Soviets, Germans wanted to occupy the island. They thought that Finns wouldn't resist but they were wrong and they were driven back with heavy losses. (They managed to capture the main port of the island for a while but a Finnish mortar team prevented them from unloading heavy equipment which gave Finns time to organize a counter attack. Also, Finns were helped by Soviet tac air.) - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatAWilson Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 I'll second the vote for Partisans, although thses might be tough as they would have to have very specialized missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Admiral: Thanks for the book link, Fernando! Do you remember the title of the documentary you saw? I'd sure like to watch that if it were on. Cheers, Nelson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, I don't The subject was the Spanish people who go/went to Russia to recover the remains of their relatives. There was a very short history of the division and interviews of some old Russians about what they thought about the Spaniards. It was very interesting for me because it's the first Spanish documentary I ever saw about the "divisionarios" (the men of the division)wich sympathized with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BasilD Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Finns are tough bastards, never heard anyone disagree with this tho on the other hand Ive heard alot of jokes told about them by the Swedes, Norwegians, etc. But certainly none had to do with their toughness. Btw am I right in that Nokia is like the #4 branded company in the world now? Damn impressive. ------------------ As the victors define history, so does the majority define sanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualfreak Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 I dont think the Italians played an active enough roll on the easter front to produce any good scenarios for a game. I believe that the Finns and Romanians should be in the game. Both played very active if not succesfull rols on the eastern front. I would personaly like to see a scenario involving the Finns and the Russians during the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusm Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 virtualfreak: In the southern front they did play a very active role. They took some heavy casualties in the Stalingrad battle. Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il carabiniere Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I dont think the Italians played an active enough roll on the easter front to produce any good scenarios for a game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dear Virtualfreak, Italy sent to the Eastern Fornt an Army Corps (CSIR, "Corpo di Spedizione Italiano in Russia") as early as Fall 1941. Later (1942) it was enlarged to Army size (ARMIR, "Armata Italiana in Russia") made up of 8 fully-equipped divisions including some of Italian Army's finest, i.e. the Alpini (div. Julia, div. Taurinense etc.). All in all, roughly 120.000 soldiers, out of which only some 20.000 came back to Italy after the collapse of the front during the Stalingrad battle. This was a very remarkable war effort on the part of Italy against an "enemy" which very few people, including the military, perceived as such. Indeed, this produced a lot of remarkable feat of arms, which are described in detail in a great number of military history books and biographies (most of them are available in Italian language only, I am afraid). ------------------ S.Ten.® Lunari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dirkd1976 Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I want to see some ski troops.......... ------------------ Never mistake motion for action - Ernest Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveman Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I'd like to see a hypothetical Allies vs. Russia in CM2. Just to see if Patton was right 8) ------------------ "You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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