My Mouse Broke.....

[Wilhammer]

...and I went to Office Depot to replace it.

Standing in line is an elderly genetleman with a stack of photocopied sections form an old newspaper article titled "12 Men Rescue French Big Wigs".

I asked the guy if he was a WW2 vet, and he was, then I asked what he did, and he tells me "I was a tank platoon leader in the 12th Armored Division".

Woo Hoo!, I know my eyes lit up.

I mamaged to spend about 20 minuted with him in the parking lot and got some information.

He told me that he arrived in the Strasburg area on December 11th, 1944 as platoon commander of some M4A3E8s. After the German counter offensive started a few weeks later, he was in combat constantly for 6 months. "We would go out, get busted up, get some new tanks and replacements, and go out and do it again." He cannot recall how many engagements he was in, but he never had a stretch of inactivity more than a week long.

I got to ask some specific questions;

What was it like taking on the German tanks?

"Well, it was tough. You alwasy tried to hide from them and attempt to ambush them to get some side shots. You never took them head on. If they appeared in front of you, you turned and ran. Hitting them in the front was a waste of time. I remember many times watching my shell just bounce off the sloped armor of Panthers and head to the sky."

Did you have any special ammo for taking on tanks?

"AP".

Nothing special, like hardened rounds or tungsten?

"I can't recall ever seeing a special AT round, just AP. The round did not matter anyway, it was that our muzzle vlocity was too low. The 76 had a velocity of 2700 fps, while the Panther's 75 had 3500 fps. They just ripped into us while we had to be sneaky to get a shot that could kill. A front hit from a 76 always bounced off."

What about smoke rounds. Did you have WP?

"All our smoke was WP, but it was not used for concealment, it had too small a blast. We used it for markers, like when we called in planes or artillery, we marked the area for them with the WP."

Did you ever use it for anti-infantry?

"I never used it for that purpose."

What did you do if you wanted concealment smoke?

"Called in smoke from 81 mm mortars. Rarely we would mass some tanks together to do it."

Another thing I debate about is the use of a gyrostabilizer. Did you use yours?

"Sometimes".

How did you use it?

"Well, I rarely shot on the move, and never against tanks. All that moving around would make that impossible. It really was useful against infantry because we would move and shoot at them. It scared them to see a bunch of tanks moving and blasting at the same time. I don't think German tanks did that. We found it effective. But we could not do it if the terrain was to rough, as the gunner could not focus."

Did the gyro give you any advantege vs. a tank?

"No, not really. I never shot at tanks while I was moving. It did help us to get a shot in sooner as the gun would be close to the proper elevation, but sionce we tried to ambush German tanks up close, I don't think it really mattered much."

Except for a few dates and a little conversation about myself (which is not interesting to CMers ), I found the guy interesting and informative. Assertive personality. When I met him in line, he was number 2 in one line, and then jumped in front of me at a line that just opened, just before I reached the point I would of been officially in line. HE ended the conversation firmly saying "Well, I have to go". I thanked him. I left very happy, but this stupid CMer forgot to get the man's name

That's it. Thought you guys might enjoy it.

[Schrullenhaft]

That was quite an opportunity. Thanks for sharing it with us. It's always interesting to hear accounts from the vets that were there (as long as they can remember accurately or care to share).

[David Aitken]

The main thing that struck me is his comments about smoke. Considering 9 out of 10 shells Allied tanks in CM seem to fire when they're up against enemy armour are smoke shells, it's interesting that this fellow didn't use them for concealment at all. However, WP isn't modelled in CM, so maybe he would have used non-WP smoke if he had it. The CM battlefield fills up with smoke too quickly. =)

David

P.S. I assume your mouse was taken out by a flanking shot? Don't try and tell me it just broke down!

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'...With mortar shells raining down everywhere, he said, "Come along, Padre".' When Egen showed reluctance, Tatham-Warter reassured him. 'Don't worry,' he said, 'I've got an umbrella.'

[This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 10-07-2000).]

[Tiger]

His mouse suffered a "gun damaged" hit and the buttons would no longer function

-john

[Grognerd_Fogman]

Maybe his mouse was doing overtime on

1-900-XXX.com?...hmmm?...lol

Get back to CM or I'm telling ur wife!

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Thanks for Athskin!

[Wilhammer]

Found the guy's battalion;

http://www.acu.edu/academics/history/12ad/23atbx/1stpg23.htm

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

Found the guy's battalion;

http://www.acu.edu/academics/history/12ad/23atbx/1stpg23.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great link!

It's interesting that our Army's LTG Monty Meigs' father was a battalion commander in WWII and was killed in action against he Germans.

That daring rescue article is pretty neat too.

[Wilhammer]

Well, I managed to find the guy thanks to the help of Vernon Williams of the 12th Armored.

His name is Francis Perkins, and he was a 1st Lt. I just did get off of the phone with him, and we will be speaking again on Tuesday night.

I have asked him if he would be interested in providing me with his memory and share his expereiences in the interest of doind an oral and a written history.

This is the first time I have ever done this, but it is something I want to do well.

Any pointers?

This is more thrilling than playing CM, guys!.

[PeterNZer]

haha so you chased this old vet down? Hmm, cool

I'd feel kinda nervous, wouldn't want to be some weedy kid trying to screw knowledge someone perhaps wants to forget.. I don't like that idea, but if he's happy to talk, that sounds really interesting.

Not sure about advice, how about just be friendly and prepared to notice if he doesn't like some topics, and then change the subject, or bring it up with him?

Take a tape recorder, and ask if you can use it.

Ask if he would like a written copy, perhaps he would like to give it to his kids/grandkids?

If so, might be nice to get it nicely done and presented.. you can even get things bound these days. You could source some pictures from the web or books, scan them in and produce a real nice little momento. Try and give him something out of it hehe

Good work!

PeterNZ

[Wilhammer]

I am really concerned about being overly pushy, and insensitive.

This is whole new ground to me.

Yeah, the momemto value is my thoughts as well. I have the resources to make a real nice book, and I am an experienced web author (www.jsclark.com), so a WWW presence is a good idea too.

I also have to get up with my wife's Uncle Raymond. She told me he was a hero in the PTO and was recently in the paper for returning to Japan and giving the widow of one of the soldiers whose remains he came across his personal effects.

I was an adult of age 36 until CM ended that . If I was some kid under 25, I don't think I would have a chance.

Mr. Perkins was real open with me yesterday and seem somewhat awed when I called him today; he was enthralled by my effort to locate him via the 12th Armored Society, and so quickly too.

I hope this works.

[This message has been edited by Wilhammer (edited 10-08-2000).]

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer

"All our smoke was WP, but it was not used for concealment, it had too small a blast. We used it for markers, like when we called in planes or artillery, we marked the area for them with the WP."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTS, are you reading this? Since air power is so haphazard, a little smoke on a target may entice the flyboys to be more obliging.

Thanks Wilhammer, it's very enlightening to hear from the men that did the real fighting. After all is said and done, it's their collective opinions that carry the most weight, IMHO.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Snake Eyes]

I'm bumping this to the top in hopes BTS will comment.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Pvt. Ryan]

Wilhammer, you might want to see if he would be interested in seeing or even playing CM to see what he thinks about it. Just make sure that you don't imply his real life experiences were a game as well.

If you touch on a subject that causes Lt. Perkins to become visibly upset, back off or change the subject.

I'm sure you already know this, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

[PeterNZer]

Sounds like you know what you're doing. Tell him about your concerns, he'll probably tell you not to worry.. i'd just chill and go for it

i wouldn't bother encouraging him to play the game, i might mention that that's one reason you're talking to him, to provide some depth and background and understanding for yourself for the units you've seen represented on the computer, and if he's interested you can always tell him something about it eh.

PeterNZ

[Monticello]

Wilhammer,

The Center of Military History publishes a book on oral history techniques and procedures. Here's the web version: <A HREF="http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/oral.htm" TARGET=_blank>www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/oral.htm </A>

[Oompa-Loompa]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

I am really concerned about being overly pushy, and insensitive.

This is whole new ground to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check out http://www.cyndislist.com/oral.htm

Geneaology is my other hobby, and genealogists have a wealth of information on how to conduct meaningful and sensitive oral interviews. There are even forms on how to conduct oral interviews with veterans.

Some points I keep in mind:

1) Be PREPARED beforehand! Use the resources from the url above. Have your questions written out and organized beofrehand. Have a timeline of the war ready and ask them where they were on important dates-"How did you hear about the surrender?", etc..

2) I usually, have someone show me pictures or memoribilia [sp?] and the stories just start flowing. It's much easier to work your questions around recollections that are naturally occuring. It's also much less pushy, invasive and forced if you follow their lead rather than trying to lead them.

3) Don't forget to bring a tape recorder AND a blank tape.

4) Most important--make certain the interviewee gets a chance to edit/explain/clarify what you have written. Nothing makes people more angry than feeling they have been misrepresented.

Hope this helps.

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"Do not needlessly endanger your lives until I give you the signal"

Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Wilhammer]

Thanks for the links guys.

The most important thing I can do is Listen.

The picture/memorbilia thing is one technique I had in mind.

When I met him, it all started with such a thing. I just showed interest, and he was most talkative. My specific questions about the weapons systems made ME feel uneasy as I was getting this information for my benefit, but he was happy to share that as well. I told him, briefly, about CM and the community I share it with, so he is prepared for that.

I think I will just be my sensitive old self and show the man the respect he so richly deserves.

Let him do the talking, and as suggested, let him be in the editing process.

It is his story, he owns it. I am merely a conduit to get it out into the public.

[Monticello]

Wilhammer,

You may want to prep yourself for the interview. I suggest reading "When the Odds were Even" by Keith E. Bonn. The book describes the Vosges Mountains Campaign (Oct 44 - Jan 45). If you can overlook his own campaign in supporting the US Army's use of rep-deps, the book is useful for context.

Good Luck!

[russellmz]

somebody actually thinks the rep deple system was a good idea?!

you are talking about the single man system to replace causalties?

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[aka_tom_w]

This sounds great...

Maybe just let your new found friend talk....

sure there are lots of questions you will want to ask and have written down, but when all is said and done, maybe he would just like to chat about things he remembers fondly, maybe his friends, maybe his commanders, maybe the country side, maybe the mechanic that worked on the tank? you know just memories...

just let him talk and listen and see where he takes you, I'm sure it will be facsinating and Thanks so much for sharing is with us

-tom w

[Guest Madmatt]

This is just my opinion but I would leave CM out for this first meeting. Some might think you are trying to glorify his exploits and knowledge somewhat and in an effort to share your enthusiasm for the game you might put him off somewhat.

It's easy to forget that for veterans like this gentleman it was no game. Now having said that most of my veteran friends are about the biggest bunch of hardcore gamers that I know!

Some great advice has already been given out here and I really can't add anything significant. Be prepared, LISTEN and when applicable let him lead the discussion wherever he wishes it to go. Don't feel obligated to ask him a laundry list of questions but have those questions ready just in case.

In the end, he is a guy like us and probably just wants to talk and share what he knows.

Keep us informed and remember to enjoy your time with him as well!

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

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Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 10-10-2000).]

[Phoenix]

Thank god. Finally, something of value gets posted to the board again!! Hurrah!!!

Please PLEASE do take the opportunity to interview him, even if it is on a casual basis. Our WWII vets are disappearing every day.

So many do not want to discuss what they saw or what they experienced. Of course, this we must respect.

When the chance comes to talk to a Vet who is willing to discuss his experiences it's like finding a treasure.

I look forward to hearing about your meeting.

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 10-10-2000).]

[Guest Pillar]

Perhaps you could get a mike for your computer and make a recording of the interview that we could listen to online? You'd have to ask the permission of the guy first obviously.

Can't wait to hear the results in any form!

[Pvt. Ryan]

Maybe you could videotape the interview if he is willing. Obviously, you don't want to push it, but he is ok with it, it would be the best way to document the interview.

[GriffinCheng+]

Hi Wilhammer,

Thanks for your informative post. Keep us informed about your talks. Show him CM and this board some day so he could be assimulated. (Why do CM Borg need to be summoned nowadays?)

If you mouse is no good, get a hamster instead. Or, consider an optical mouse which is immue to mechanical breakdown in the moving part.

BTS, I think smoke concealment of Allied tanks should be really toned down a bit.

Griffin.

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"+" is just the beginning. Expect to see "GriffinCheng76", "GriffinCheng(105)" or "GriffinChengA3E8" more should Forum problems occur again