Doug Beman Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Throw me a frickin SMILIE here, people! DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <HTML> <FONT SIZE=2> Steve:</P><DIR> <DIR> Scott, the "withdraw" thing is something I would like to see as well. I think it will come into being at some point. Hopefully </P></DIR> </DIR> GREAT! Keep it up and I may just have to change my sig...nawwww...never happen. </P> </FONT><FONT FACE="Courier New" SIZE=2> ( ...and a few more just for Mr. "P" )</P></FONT></BODY> </HTML> ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <HTML> <FONT SIZE=2> Armorbuff:</P><DIR> <DIR> ...there should even be a "battlefield integrity" rule in most cases where one side, withdraws from battle when losses reach a certain percentage.</P></DIR> </DIR> There is! When your 'sides' "global morale" reaches a certain, variable, unknown point you lose. Period, no way out. Your force disintegrates and (I think) they wholesale surrender.</P></FONT></BODY> </HTML> ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freelancal Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I'm a man (looser), but I can change (hanging my head in shame)...if I have to. You guys make me feel like sh*t! My last post was "I lost to my fine PBEM opponent Lt.Bull by turn 4 in CE. Me as germans, setting up my STUG's in hull down position, he comes charging over the hill, guns blazing, fully loaded with squads. BOOM! BOOM! All 3 STUG's are taken out as well as all my Schrecks. I knew I was beat and surrendered." Yes I surrender on turn 4, actually sent the surrender screen. I felt that was the least I could do. I've played 15 PBEM so far and still have 3 unfinished games that opponents neglected to finish off, yes you know who you are. But I've always felt that if you see the handwriting on the wall the decent thing to do is send the surrender screen. Why bother with the dismal destruction of all your forces. I've never just not replied to PBEM's I'm loosing and I always send the surrender screen if I'm beat. Nothing better than a completed game that I can dump from my hardrive. I'll try harder next time, guys, and promise to play to my last man...well maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 In addition to a Withdraw command (good idea Scott), what about having the Cease Fire command end that battle then both players would start over with a modified setup/placement phase of some sort with those troops regrouped into squads with a minor ammo replenishment/redistribution. Just a thought, TeAcH [This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 06-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I am with Scott that I don't want someone I have stomped or has stomped me keeping a dead game going just so they can increase some ladder score. For this reason (sorry guys building it) I have just decided I am not going to be a part of a ladder. ------------------ "To conquer death you only have to die" JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I don't see a difference between a surrender when you know the game is over and the AI calling for a surrender when all you want is anoether one or two truns to brew up some knocked out vehicles or put the final nail in the coffin, so I wouldn't be too hard on people on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 i've got a confession to make on this subject. i was playing michael pbem as germans in vot and quit after losing my 75pb and 150ig. they were behind hill 209 and he had sherm 105s on the other hill at the back of the board. they simply took the 75pb out when they crested. i had 3 infantry platoons and a pillbox on my far left, the south of the board. tanks and infantry were swamping my right side. i could see shermans eventually overlooking the town from 209 and wiping out all three of my remaining platoons. i surrendered there. perhaps that was the wrong thing to do but i didn't want to sit through all my reinforcements dying along with 3 platoons. i could have tried some tank hunting but there were 6 of them all together and i figured the tank hunting idea wouldn't get too far, say if there were even 3 of them left after the panther and its reinforcement platoon of infantry had been bushwhacked. his 105 shermans also carried 2 full-strength squads, probably enough to mitigate my reinforcement platoon. so even though prior to that i'd told myself i would never surrender, in this scenario i did just that. i figure the minimum of ettiquite is to at least surrender instead of leaving the opponent high and dry. btw, i've got another vot going with myself as americans and michael as germans. we've got a real battle going. my 105 FO fire was wasted trying to take out the 75mm pb. the reinforcement shermans did the trick. i rushed all 6 tanks but they weren't bunched and of the 2 105 shermans on my far left or northern side of the board he got one with a pzk. the other 4 rushed up the gut and veered to the nw corner of plomville or just to the right of the closest 2-story light building from the american view. there i lost 1 sherman to an antitank mine on the road, and another to a pzk. i've got one 105 sherm, a 76 sherm, and a 75 sherm and it's turn 17. this could be really interesting. the infantry are finally pressing forward in the attack. there are pesky german mg positions and we're out of FO HE. anyway, for myself i will at least surrender and not just slither away. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 being too lazy to count and not caring enough to do it anyway, it seems like most of the humans on this thread have the idea that leaving someone high and dry without so much as a "piss off!" is at least not proper and at worst will get you struck from the PBEM list (and perhaps a flame on the board, which is nice...I think.) It also seems like most agree that it is OK to bail and put your hands up behind your head when: 1. it ain't no fun no mo, 2. yer pretty sure yer toast, 3. resistance is futile. this thread also appears to have certain types of contributors: 1. confessors of their naughty sins, 2. defenders of the noble surrender 3. haters of the ignoble bailer Anyone with the wherewithal care to keep a tally or refine or re-define the categories into more acceptable groupings? naaaah! Peng - waiting for PBEM turns via IM. ------------------ Peng sez "die a lot now." [This message has been edited by MrPeng (edited 06-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by freelancal: I'm a man (looser), but I can change (hanging my head in shame)...if I have to. You guys make me feel like sh*t! My last post was "I lost to my fine PBEM opponent Lt.Bull by turn 4 in CE. Me as germans, setting up my STUG's in hull down position, he comes charging over the hill, guns blazing, fully loaded with squads. BOOM! BOOM! All 3 STUG's are taken out as well as all my Schrecks. I knew I was beat and surrendered." Yes I surrender on turn 4, actually sent the surrender screen. I felt that was the least I could do. I've played 15 PBEM so far and still have 3 unfinished games that opponents neglected to finish off, yes you know who you are. But I've always felt that if you see the handwriting on the wall the decent thing to do is send the surrender screen. Why bother with the dismal destruction of all your forces. I've never just not replied to PBEM's I'm loosing and I always send the surrender screen if I'm beat. Nothing better than a completed game that I can dump from my hardrive. I'll try harder next time, guys, and promise to play to my last man...well maybe not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Freelancal, You are not a loser if you've got the 'nads to admit that on this board. I think you'll agree from the tenor of a lot of the posts here that no one minds a surrender in an utterly hopeless situation. Check with your opponent in case he/she has a reason to continue the slaughter. If you both agree, surrender is OK. (There are a lot of gamers who don't want to spend 10 turns chasing 5 guys around the board and they'll gladly accept surrender and probably ask if you want to have another game.) In my first game of VoT against Sgt. Morgue, I made some really bad setup decisions as the Germans. He rolled through my feeble defense like it wasn't there. (by the time he got to town, it basically wasn't) I had about four guys left still moving, a pillbox facing the wrong way that he hadn't gotten around to yet and a mortar on the other side of the board with 2 rounds left. (The pillbox and 150 were gone on T-3). This was T-11 or T-12. We strung it out (my remaining troops were fanatics; morale was at 3 percent but the AI wouldn't throw in the towel) until T-19 when the Panther showed up. Morgue wanted to play with kitty, and I was happy to oblige. Point is my situation was utterly hopeless from T-12 and I easily would have/should have surrendered. Keep the faith, Freelancal. ------------------ We are both men of action. Lies do not become us. — Westley [This message has been edited by Moriarty (edited 06-10-2000).] [This message has been edited by Moriarty (edited 06-10-2000).] [This message has been edited by Moriarty (edited 06-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 10, 2000 Author Share Posted June 10, 2000 I want to be perfectly clear and state again that I dont expect someone to fight to the last man. Not even the last platoon. It is when someone quits because they dont hold the ADVANTAGE anymore. I really dont want to play a player like this. It is not fun to take all the time to set-up and play just to accept a surrender too early. I would treat it as a victory but *I* would still feel robbed of my time. There are plenty of times that things didnt go as planned so a surrender, early in fact, is very much warrented, but when things start going a little bad and they surrender I find it to be of the quitter mentality. When I continue a game that I feel is lost I dont do it for a point value. I want to make the other side pay for any more ground. And I also think that there might be a chance, however slim to pull a upset. Ask SS-Pl. I peformed a great attack in CE. Everything went as planned. I was so proud and after capturing all but one objective I made a mistake coupled with a brilliant counter-attack by SS which eventually cost me the game. SS could have quit and I'm sure the thought was entertained but the true strategist and gamer in him wouldnt allow it. He pulled of a well deserved victory from me and gained my admiration as *my* kind of Pbem opponent. If the ladder is as described, I have no desire to be part of it. I'm not looking for a high score, I want honor amongst my troops and a dedication from them to be able to achieve things not so cut-and-dry. That is whats fun for me. Knowing that I have exausted every possibility to make the best of a difficult situation, P.S. You will notice that I have not mentioned names because that is not what I'm about. This is a good board with good people on it. We are allowed to talk of such things without malice. That is the great part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 duly noted, von shrad you have made your points honorably. ------------------ We are both men of action. Lies do not become us. — Westley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 ********Possible VOT spoiler Info******* Hi all, Excellent topic. I am a chess player too and have no problem with people 'resigning' early as long as they tell me and don't just walk away in disgust. In the chess world a player who insists on continuing even after he has a obviously lost position is considered amateurish if not boorish. It's a little different in CM as the luck factor is very high. My current pbem opponent is fighting gamely with the remnants of two platoons against overwhelming odds. His panther is crippled from 105 fire behind the hill 209 and my flamethrower is 100 yards away from it yet he still wants to fight on after my earlier offer for him to surrender. l love that kind of fighting spirit in CM because I may get the satisfaction of taking out the panther with my flamethrower. And I also am interested to see what he can come up with in terms of a defense but I would be just as happy with a win and a new game. Talking about net courtesy I think that the winning player should offer to let the losing player surrender as soon as he thinks the game is a foregone conclusion. In CM pbem the winning player who insists on playing out the won game and gets irritated when the losing player surrenders could be considered the amateurish if not boorish player. Like in Fionn's and Bil's recent game, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to play out a foregone conclusion. If anyone wants a pbem send any setup to dallas@dnaanalysis.com.au I am online via cable 24/7 for business and can guarantee that all games will be played quickly, courteously, tenaciously and to mutually agreed completion. Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 ********Possible VOT spoiler Info******* Hi all, Excellent topic. I am a chess player too and have no problem with people 'resigning' early as long as they tell me and don't just walk away in disgust. In the chess world a player who insists on continuing even after he has a obviously lost position is considered amateurish if not boorish. It's a little different in CM as the luck factor is very high. My current pbem opponent is fighting gamely with the remnants of two platoons against overwhelming odds. His panther is crippled from 105 fire behind the hill 209 and my flamethrower is 100 yards away from it yet he still wants to fight on after my earlier offer for him to surrender. l love that kind of fighting spirit in CM because I may get the satisfaction of taking out the panther with my flamethrower. And I also am interested to see what he can come up with in terms of a defense but I would be just as happy with a win and a new game. Talking about net courtesy I think that the winning player should offer to let the losing player surrender as soon as he thinks the game is a foregone conclusion. In CM pbem the winning player who insists on playing out the won game and gets irritated when the losing player surrenders could be considered the amateurish if not boorish player. Like in Fionn's and Bil's recent game, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to play out a foregone conclusion. If anyone wants a pbem send any setup to dallas@dnaanalysis.com.au I am online via cable 24/7 for business and can guarantee that all games will be played quickly, courteously, tenaciously and to mutually agreed completion. Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I will fight tooth and nail to the last man. I will make you pay for every square inch, every house, every hill, and every patch of woods. Your men will curse my name, and I will curse yours. Surrender is not an option. Death is not an option. Only victory. And it will come at a high price. [que the music] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also I hate it when people quit a game early and surrender when all is not done. I know that it is differant when you play a Operation but these are just single battles. Let me reap the rewards of a victory a little. I'm not saying play till the last man just dont quit when you think all is lost when there is plenty of opportunity to fight. This has happened several times. I am talking about early surrenders. They lose a special unit then quit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok, remember some of us play it a bit more realistically. Most of us have some form of command experience. There is a point in a lost battle when surrender is the realistic option. I will not continue a battle in which I have no chance of retreat and all continuing is going to produce is more casualties. Given a chance to retreat off map, I'll take that option, but I will not play fish in the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 TeAcH: The "Cease Fire" command is already in CM. Been in since the beta demo. Elvis: Hey! Don't bail out on the ladder 'cause of what I said! ( Hell, since when does anyone listen to me??? ) I hope/expect the CM ladder to be better than the CC/SP ladders I was in...if you don't like it you can always quit the ladder. But if you are interested give it a try. I have not decided for myself yet. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In my first game of VoT against Sgt. Morgue, I made some really bad setup decisions as the Germans. He rolled through my feeble defense like it wasn't there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> HeHe, in my experience, even if you had made the right decisions Sgt. Morgue would still roll through your defences. That dude really knows his s$%t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krm Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 In response to PBEM slackers and quitters, I agree with Von Shrad's initial post. I began a game with a person, who has been on this board for a long time. First couple of days were fine. I haven't received a reply from this person for almost a month Nor has this person written to me to let me know of their situation. I know they are not away because they continue to post, so what's up So, eventually, I had to delete the PBEM folder and forget about it. Not that it us a big deal, but it is just frustrating to be left hanging. ------------------ krm - King of useless posts;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen: In my first game of VoT against Sgt. Morgue, I made some really bad setup decisions as the Germans. He rolled through my feeble defense like it wasn't there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> HeHe, in my experience, even if you had made the right decisions Sgt. Morgue would still roll through your defences. That dude really knows his s$%t. you are soooo right. ... as I am finding out again. LOL ------------------ We are both men of action. Lies do not become us. — Westley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 Erm, ah, Actually I'm still waiting for that Riesberg turn, Berli! Allthough I wouldn't be surprised if you were thinking directly the opposite. (and I was winning... I think ) Anyway, Berli, I regret to inform you that Sgt. Beta has bitten the dust while heroically trying to hold his harddisk positions during a major 'new hardware' assault (pending the arrival of CM) on my computer. It was the Format.com squad that finally did it in. There were no survivors. Rematch soon?! ------------------ Combat Axiom 46. Do unto others, before they do unto you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Erm, ah, Actually I'm still waiting for that Riesberg turn, Berli! Allthough I wouldn't be surprised if you were thinking directly the opposite. (and I was winning... I think )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was waiting for one from you... and you were losing. I'll send the file as soon as I finish this post. You do still have the beta demo, don't you? [This message has been edited by Berlichtingen (edited 06-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWorthing Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 Hey grunto, where's your surrender? (i would do a smiley but i don't know how and i fear peng's wrath) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 Oh well...I played some 15 games and had some 4 quitters...they were losing...and then I am the winner! ...they were losing so bad that they quit without uttering a lone word! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 I 'm guilty of not continuing the beta game Knaust all my beta games just folded - lost interest (not just from my end) the minute the gold came out - I dont recall I was losing this one tho seemed about even but I will surrender regardless - I dont wish to continue the beta - sorry for not formally surrendering ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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