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I wonder if it would be possible to order CM and not wait for the manual. I never read the thing anyway and wonder if that would make it possible to get the game sooner?

I would gladly pay full price and either not get a manual, get the manual later from a download, or pay extra to get the manual shipped seperately at a later time.

I know that things here have been alot calmer since the announcement and I applaud that BTS has set a "date". I just want to get my grubby hands on the CDROM as soon as I can and wonder if something like the above would be possible? I'll even retract my previous posting about not pre-ordering (but I am still right because theres a "release date" and thats different) and get in line with the rest of the slugs.

Thanks

Lewis

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Guest Big Time Software

Nope, not a chance smile.gif We aren't going to rush into CD production and CM is NOT a downloadable product. Truth is that we are still adding in last minute artwork changes and the scenario text hasn't been finalized yet, so the game isn't ready for duplication in any case. Yes, the coding is done, but doesn't mean it is ready for public consumption yet.

There is also no incentive for us to rush the process. We are going to get revenue from CM sooner rather than later, so since we aren't hard up for cash we'd much rather do it the right way.

Steve

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Nope, not a chance smile.gif We aren't going to rush into CD production and CM is NOT a downloadable product. We are going to get revenue from CM sooner rather than later, so since we aren't hard up for cash we'd much rather do it the right way.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will the Gold Demo will be downloadable then?

Lewis

PS I am hard up for cash. Can I get a loan?

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Guest Ol' Blood & Guts

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Will the Gold Demo will be downloadable then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh com'on! You know the answer to that! Of course it will be downloadable! What do you think they are going to do? Send out a CD with just Demo code? That's the reason why they are making a Gold Demo, so that we'll have something to play WHILE the game CDs and manuals are being DUPLICATED.

For a 'member', that is a pretty darned silly question to ask.

------------------

"I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang

[This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 04-07-2000).]

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Besides, if BTS were going to get CM into anyones hands sooner, it would likely be those of us (an I'm not saying I'm one of them) who are more thoughtful, considerate and patient than others.

------------------

desert rat wannabe

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Besides, if BTS were going to get CM into anyones hands sooner, it would likely be those of us (an I'm not saying I'm one of them) who are more thoughtful, considerate and patient than others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, really. People like ME, $%@#$%@! I deserve to get this #@%$@%$ game before all the rest of these @^%@^%#s! I'd kill them all and piss on their graves to get this game first!

DjB

[This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 04-07-2000).]

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Guest Ol' Blood & Guts

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

Yeah, really. People like ME, $%@#$%@! I deserve to get this #@%$@%$ game before all the rest of these @^%@^%#s! I'd kill them all and piss on their graves to get this game first!

DjB

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just be sure you don't walk too close to Steve or Charles, cause if they happen to stop suddenly, you know where your nose would go. wink.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

------------------

"I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang

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Guest Big Time Software

350 MB or so seems to be a tad too big for a download smile.gif So the answer is a very huge "no" on downloading. Also, the infrastructure for setting up secured downloads (a must unless we are planning on giving the thing away biggrin.gif) is not cheap or easy from what I am told. So it really isn't a good option for either customer or us. 98% of CM customers out there want a printed manual, which has to be shipped, so there is no point in going through all this effort and expense.

Steve

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Hooray for printed manuals!

Having only one computer at home I have to share with wife and kids...so a printed manual allows me to spend time with CM when I'm not at the computer...at work, in the car, walking out to get the mail etc etc.. wink.gif

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Guest Ol' Blood & Guts

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

350 MB or so seems to be a tad too big for a download smile.gif So the answer is a very huge "no" on downloading.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume you're talking about the manual potentially being a 350MB dowload? Damn, is it really that big? Lots of pictures, I guess, huh?

One thing about the demo I never figured out was what the HQ leader attributes were. You know, those little hearts and lightning bolts and stuff.

------------------

"I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts:

One thing about the demo I never figured out was what the HQ leader attributes were. You know, those little hearts and lightning bolts and stuff.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno for sure, but aren't the hearts and lightning bolts there to say that particular leader is bold and a good motivator? wink.gif I just know when you highlight the command guys and click <return>, there's a line giving some +1's in certain areas. I'm assuming that's what those little thingys stand for, but I'm not claiming any kind of authority...

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts:

I assume you're talking about the manual potentially being a 350MB dowload? Damn, is it really that big? Lots of pictures, I guess, huh?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NOW WHAT KIND OF SILLY QUESTION IS THAT!!!???

Only kidding Mr.Guts. PDFs can get really big.

Lewis

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Guest Big Time Software

Whoops! Misread Lewis' quetion. I thought he asked if the Gold version could be downloadable (been asked many times in the last year smile.gif), but rereading he asked about the Gold Demo. No to the final, yes to the Gold Demo. Size of that sucker will probably be a bit bigger due to the larger textures we are now using. Dunno how much bigger though.

Steve

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Guest major_tom

I don't want to sound like an anarchist..

But 350 megs is not too big for a download,

Steve is totally correct to suggest that

a secure download web site where you pay

money via a credit card and then download the software is not cheap or easy to set up.

I was really hoping BTS would do it anyway.

There are 200,000 cable modem subscribers in

the Toronto-Hamilton (Ont.) Golden HorseShoe

area. I mention this because many people

now have high band width service.

AND

Underground Warez servers and sites like

Hotline routinely (everyday 24-7) serve

very large downloads to people/users who

do not pay for software they should being paying for.

Please check out:

http://www.bigredh.com/index2.html

They may have a cheap solution for you

to permit you to automate (think saving

money on labour) the pay by credit card download software process. I would humbly suggest

if you are in the business of selling some

thing that could be downloaded, (and both the manual , in its Acrobat format, and the 350 meg game "could" be downloaded) then why not

let those people/users with high band width connections spend their money and get instant

gratification.

I would also humbly suggest, (please do not be offended by this) that there may be some highly literate computer users (mostly the younger ones who know what and where the warez are) on this board who will find the Combat

Mission Gold Release stuffed/zipped and saved as a Disk Copy disk Image on a Hotline Warez server and they will download it weeks before their

CD_ROM and Manual comes to them in the mail.

I would suggest your game will be being downloaded for free from a HotLine server somewhere outside the USA with in one week of its public release. I'm sorry to say this but to get the gold master downloaded for free across cable modem, 350 megs is not too big.

If a cable modem could sustain a download rate

of 128 Kbps (kilobytes per second) (it can,) and the file was 350 Megs big it would come down at about a Meg a minute that would mean an over night download on a cable modem and it would be finished in about 5 hours and 48 minutes.

OK lets say about six hours. I'll bet there

are users here who read this who have downloaded these kinds of file sizes in the past. To have the game in my hot little hands the next day (overnight) I would happily pay the additional equivalent of the

overnight shipping charge as a premium for

download of the Gold Master....

I hope that this will stimulate conversation for your benefit. Check out hotline..

I bet there are more than a few Hotline users

here that read this that know this underground

frenzy of free downloadable software is out

there for the taking. Sadly I wonder if your

new game will be the NEXT big thing to be

downloaded for free from a Hotline Server...

A little back ground on Holine servers.

They are mostly computer servers run by

teens and computer geeks in their parents

basements or garages. These server admins mostly "deal" in pirated software and typically are VERY proud of their Large collection of pirated software. They "trade" pirated software with other Holine Admins and brag about who has the largest collection of

high end grahics software or the latest games that for the most part, most of them don't have any idea how to use or play.

Now lets see who I have just offended....

comments?

And Yes I do think this a GREAT game

even in it Beta Demo 3 scenario

pre-relaese!

And yes, I have preorded the game

and I will pay for it, but If

I could down load it for free

(because it is sitting on someone

elses Hotline Server) before

it came in the mail.....

well....

What can I say

-Tom W

P.S The Moral of the story here is

if you can beat 'em, join 'em

i.e. use a hotline server and credit

card authentication.

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Guest Big Time Software

Sorry to break the news to you, but cable modems and other fast connections service a tiny percentage of online users. I live in the US and probably won't get such service for 3 more years, but probably never. So 350MB is a big deal for probably 90% of our customer base. Especially for anybody outside of Canada and the US. Remember, most people in the world have to pay for each and every minute they are online (phone charges) and don't have access to the fast stuff for the most part.

As for piracy... if I could put the warez people in a small lead box and drop them in the ocean I would do so with glee. I'd give em about 3 minutes worth of air so that they would have that time to think about what they have done. If everybody downloaded CM1 off of Hotline I can tell you for sure that there would be no CM2, CM3, CM4, and anything else we would cook up in the future. Why? Because we didn't spend about 5 man years working for nothing to be paid nothing. Piracy is one of the most indefensable thing out there, and I wish to GOD that our various law enforcement authorities would spend more time shutting them down and tossing the theifs in jail next to someone named Bubba.

End of rant.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-10-2000).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>350 megs is not too big for a download<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>many people

now have high band width service<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many, many more do not. All of them have mailboxes, however. Given limited time and resources, and unlimited projects, which would it pay BTS to pursue?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>there may be some highly literate computer users (mostly the younger ones who know what and where the warez are) on this board who will find the Combat

Mission Gold Release stuffed/zipped and saved as a Disk Copy disk Image on a Hotline Warez server and they will download it weeks before their

CD_ROM and Manual comes to them in the mail.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those savvy webdewdz, what'll they think of next... so you think the main motive for piracy is the inability of gamers to wait for the Post Office? confused.gif I thought it was plain cheap dishonesty. If, as you say, they pirate for bragging rights alone, then no real harm done- no serious gamer dollars were lost to your warez pals.

If there's any upside to the pirating of CM, it's that some young pirate may get interested enough in historically accurate wargames to recognize that CM is something special and deserves the bucks to keep more of the same coming. If they're not serious gamers then, as I say, no real dollars were lost.

What you seem to be arguing is that, because the game will be pirated anyway, BTS should adopt a means of distribution that will facilitate pirating, in order to please a minority of their loyal following who will be pleased anyway. confused.gif

PS: I had not seen BTS' response when composing the above so please don't interpret this as "piling on".

[This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 04-10-2000).]

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Ah,nevermind!

Sorry Fellas!

------------------

It is no disgrace to be defeated...It is a disgrace to be surprised.

-attr.to Fredrick the Great-

[This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-10-2000).]

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Guest major_tom

"If there's any upside to the pirating of CM, it's that some young pirate

may get interested enough in historically accurate wargames to recognize that CM is something special and deserves the bucks to

keep more of the same coming. If they're not serious gamers then, as I say, no real dollars were lost.

What you seem to be arguing is that, because the game will be pirated anyway, BTS should adopt a means of distribution that will facilitate pirating, in order to please a minority of their loyal following who will be

pleased anyway. "

Hi

Thank you for your balanced reply.

I figured this would be a controversial

issue. What I meant to say in my

original post that the pirating software

is wrong and illegal. To suggest

otherwise would make me sound like a fool.

However let us not be blind to the fact

that this is happening.

When you state:

"What you seem to be arguing is that, because the game will be pirated anyway, BTS should adopt a means of distribution that will facilitate pirating, in order to please a minority of their loyal following who will be

pleased anyway."

I must reply by suggesting that what I meant

was that there are computer users out there

who routinely download large 350 meg files.

If BTS is in the game/software business there

is a technology (Called the Hotline Server)

which was designed specifically by Hotline

to handle multiple users trying to download

large file sizes. Not all Hotline servers

have pirated software on them.

I know BTS is not a really big big company

but if they sell software and they do NOT

want to put their game on store shelves

(a decision which I understand and support)

then it occured to me that BTS must have a relationship with a credit card authenitication service (presumably via a

phone call) to facilate their mail order

process, then why not authenticate the credit card and then allow a software downloaded.

So What I am saying is why not

let users who want to pay via credit card

download the Gold Master from a server

AFTER the money comes off the credit card.

If, as Steve points out the number of people

who would have the bandwdith via (cable modem)

and the technical know how to do this are so

few in number then the burden on their resources and their server will be quite

minimal.

I was trying to suggest that a low

tech alternative is to capture the credit

card info via e-mail or phone, then

authenticate the credit and put the

charge through just like if the box

would be shipped, but don't ship the

box, just e-mail the purchaser a ONE

time only user name and password,good

for ONE download only of the game and

manual off of a secure web server or

FTP server, that requires a user name and password to log on to.

My point was that Hotline users do this every

day for files that may be larger than 350 megs.

Since BTS will have to authenticate the credit card before they ship the Cd in the box anyway

why don't they authenticate the Credit card

and then send an e-mail with a password to the buyer and let that buyer download the game.

If it is the opinion of BTS that this kind of

marketing and packaging (allowing people to buy the game in a downloadable format) will only help to facilitate piracy and illegal downloading of their copywritten game, my point is it does not matter if the game is in a form that is downloadable or not. The entire contents of any CD can be made in into a downloadable file format in matter of minutes so I am suggesting that if by choosing not to

allow the download of the game BTS believes

they are thwarting the pirates I would suggest

they have only done so until the first one

gets their hands on the CD that is shipped, after that the pirate will have no trouble

posting the disk image of the CD on his

server.

I guess my point was that for a sub culture of

computer geeks a 350 meg download (if left overnight) is not a big deal. I was not suggesting in any way that the game should be free, or pirated. What I was saying is that when it is released some one else could take

the entire contents of the Gold master disk and post it for the purpose of download on

a Hotline site. So there will be people

who are prepared to wait for a 350 meg

download. My point was simply that I would

pay extra for the opportunity to wait

for an over night 350 meg download of this

wonderful game.

I hope that this has not caused a flame

war. I did consider the reaction to this

reply before I started writting. I truly

do not intend to offend Steve or BTS.

Like everyone else here I want to get

the game as soon as possible and being

a computer geek (Mac Tech/Mac OSX Server

Admin) myself I though I would mention that

other computer geeks like to wait all night

for large downloads of files they

get off of remote servers.

Hope that helps

Now I suspect I hear from one of the network server admin tech guys at BTS and they will tell me their perspective. (I hope)

Thanks

I Still think it will be a great Game

thats why I want to download the day it

is released and play it the minute

it finishes downloading....

Hope thats not too controversial..

-tom W

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Guest Big Time Software

Secured ordering is a pain in the ass and an expense (someone has to get paid for the service and/or software). Some of the people out there offering such services want as much as 35% of the sale price!!

My point here is that, contrary to the Pirate mentality, NOTHING is for free. Things either take time or money, most often both. Since the number of people that would want to download CM and NOT receive the printed manual could probably be counted on two hands, it isn't worth the effort.

Having software for download will *NOT* reduce piracy even 0.000000000000001%. Pirates pirate because they feel it is the God given right to have something for nothing. Having a game available 3-6 days sooner than if ordered by mail is *not* something that will change this.

Sorry, I've been doing this for almost 7 years now. Technology might change, but two constants always remain the same:

1. Those with the fastest whatever always want everybody to cater to them, no matter what itsybitsytiny headcount the represent. This is as true for 350MB downloads as it is for high end 3D cards of fast CPUs.

2. Pirates are motivated in ways that can not be combated by anything except for jail time. Trying to reason with someone who thinks they have the right to steal something already puts such people outside of rational thinking, and therefore they can not be reasoned with.

Bottom line is that having a downloadable version will not gain us a single sale, and yet it will cost us time and money to set up. So where is the incentive to do this? Answer is there is absolutely none what-so-ever. Do not look for our products for secured online downloads in the near future for sure.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-10-2000).]

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Guest major_tom

Ok,

Keep up the good work.

I know it will be a great

game.

I believe in your vision and

I salute your independace from the

bigger (business suits) game publishers.

Thats the same mindset (independance) that gave us Riven and Myst, two wonderful games.

Good Luck, on wrapping up the project,

-tom W

P.S. Supposedly I spend so much "work-related"

time on this board that one of my co-workers jokes that you should hire me as a consultant.

:)

For the record I am not a software Pirate,

but I do know where they hang out in cyberspace...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Secured ordering is a pain in the ass and an expense (someone has to get paid for the service and/or software). Some of the people out there offering such services want as much as 35% of the sale price!!

My point here is that, contrary to the Pirate mentality, NOTHING is for free. Things either take time or money, most often both. Since the number of people that would want to download CM and NOT receive the printed manual could probably be counted on two hands, it isn't worth the effort.

Having software for download will *NOT* reduce piracy even 0.000000000000001%. Pirates pirate because they feel it is the God given right to have something for nothing. Having a game available 3-6 days sooner than if ordered by mail is *not* something that will change this.

Sorry, I've been doing this for almost 7 years now. Technology might change, but two constants always remain the same:

1. Those with the fastest whatever always want everybody to cater to them, no matter what itsybitsytiny headcount the represent. This is as true for 350MB downloads as it is for high end 3D cards of fast CPUs.

2. Pirates are motivated in ways that can not be combated by anything except for jail time. Trying to reason with someone who thinks they have the right to steal something already puts such people outside of rational thinking, and therefore they can not be reasoned with.

Bottom line is that having a downloadable version will not gain us a single sale, and yet it will cost us time and money to set up. So where is the incentive to do this? Answer is there is absolutely none what-so-ever. Do not look for our products for secured online downloads in the near future for sure.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-10-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Steve

Realistically the software companies should make it harder for these crimes to be perpertrated. They should all ban together and get the government to support them.

I am sure that most pirates wouldnt walk into CompUSA and steal a video card because its very difficult to do and easy to get caught. Likewise, the industry should make it difficult to pirate copyrighted software. Its all going to boil down to more expense for software developers.

Theres no easy answer but I would do the following. People buy CDROM games and the low upfront cost (lets say $9.99)covers the packaging expenses. They take the game home and load it and they HAVE to get online to register WITH a credit card. Every time they play they have to pay a small fee online (they can pre-order multiple games for airplane trips with laptops). Lets say 25cents a game. There is a "code of the day" that gets them playing. After they have spent 50 bucks (200 plays), they can play for a nickel a game. They can never change credit cards and the game becomes non-transferable.

Its just an idea but you get my point. Its up to the software industry to protect itself. It might mean a change in the way the industry does business. Make the CDROM just a tool like the computer itself, not the product.

Lewis

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Steve

Realistically the software companies should make it harder for these crimes to be perpertrated. They should all ban together and get the government to support them.

I am sure that most pirates wouldnt walk into CompUSA and steal a video card because its very difficult to do and easy to get caught. Likewise, the industry should make it difficult to pirate copyrighted software. Its all going to boil down to more expense for software developers.

Theres no easy answer but I would do the following. People buy CDROM games and the low upfront cost (lets say $9.99)covers the packaging expenses. They take the game home and load it and they HAVE to get online to register WITH a credit card. Every time they play they have to pay a small fee online (they can pre-order multiple games for airplane trips with laptops). Lets say 25cents a game. There is a "code of the day" that gets them playing. After they have spent 50 bucks (200 plays), they can play for a nickel a game. They can never change credit cards and the game becomes non-transferable.

Its just an idea but you get my point. Its up to the software industry to protect itself. It might mean a change in the way the industry does business. Make the CDROM just a tool like the computer itself, not the product.

Lewis

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would never buy another computer game EVER again if everyone did this. It is just to damn inconvenient. EVERY time I want to play/use the software I have to pay? No thanks. If companies did this, I think my computer gaming addiction would go away (maybe).

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