Username Posted April 7, 2000 Share Posted April 7, 2000 BTS I wonder if it would be possible to order CM and not wait for the manual. I never read the thing anyway and wonder if that would make it possible to get the game sooner? I would gladly pay full price and either not get a manual, get the manual later from a download, or pay extra to get the manual shipped seperately at a later time. I know that things here have been alot calmer since the announcement and I applaud that BTS has set a "date". I just want to get my grubby hands on the CDROM as soon as I can and wonder if something like the above would be possible? I'll even retract my previous posting about not pre-ordering (but I am still right because theres a "release date" and thats different) and get in line with the rest of the slugs. Thanks Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 7, 2000 Share Posted April 7, 2000 Nope, not a chance We aren't going to rush into CD production and CM is NOT a downloadable product. Truth is that we are still adding in last minute artwork changes and the scenario text hasn't been finalized yet, so the game isn't ready for duplication in any case. Yes, the coding is done, but doesn't mean it is ready for public consumption yet. There is also no incentive for us to rush the process. We are going to get revenue from CM sooner rather than later, so since we aren't hard up for cash we'd much rather do it the right way. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 7, 2000 Author Share Posted April 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Nope, not a chance We aren't going to rush into CD production and CM is NOT a downloadable product. We are going to get revenue from CM sooner rather than later, so since we aren't hard up for cash we'd much rather do it the right way. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Will the Gold Demo will be downloadable then? Lewis PS I am hard up for cash. Can I get a loan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 7, 2000 Share Posted April 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Will the Gold Demo will be downloadable then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh com'on! You know the answer to that! Of course it will be downloadable! What do you think they are going to do? Send out a CD with just Demo code? That's the reason why they are making a Gold Demo, so that we'll have something to play WHILE the game CDs and manuals are being DUPLICATED. For a 'member', that is a pretty darned silly question to ask. ------------------ "I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang [This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 04-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 Besides, if BTS were going to get CM into anyones hands sooner, it would likely be those of us (an I'm not saying I'm one of them) who are more thoughtful, considerate and patient than others. ------------------ desert rat wannabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 To the back of the line boy. Some lunitic actully pre-ordered on the basis of the Alpha ARR. Unfortunaly I'm not one of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Besides, if BTS were going to get CM into anyones hands sooner, it would likely be those of us (an I'm not saying I'm one of them) who are more thoughtful, considerate and patient than others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, really. People like ME, $%@#$%@! I deserve to get this #@%$@%$ game before all the rest of these @^%@^%#s! I'd kill them all and piss on their graves to get this game first! DjB [This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 04-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman: Yeah, really. People like ME, $%@#$%@! I deserve to get this #@%$@%$ game before all the rest of these @^%@^%#s! I'd kill them all and piss on their graves to get this game first! DjB <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just be sure you don't walk too close to Steve or Charles, cause if they happen to stop suddenly, you know where your nose would go. ------------------ "I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 9, 2000 Share Posted April 9, 2000 350 MB or so seems to be a tad too big for a download So the answer is a very huge "no" on downloading. Also, the infrastructure for setting up secured downloads (a must unless we are planning on giving the thing away ) is not cheap or easy from what I am told. So it really isn't a good option for either customer or us. 98% of CM customers out there want a printed manual, which has to be shipped, so there is no point in going through all this effort and expense. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno Posted April 9, 2000 Share Posted April 9, 2000 Hooray for printed manuals! Having only one computer at home I have to share with wife and kids...so a printed manual allows me to spend time with CM when I'm not at the computer...at work, in the car, walking out to get the mail etc etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 9, 2000 Share Posted April 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: 350 MB or so seems to be a tad too big for a download So the answer is a very huge "no" on downloading. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I assume you're talking about the manual potentially being a 350MB dowload? Damn, is it really that big? Lots of pictures, I guess, huh? One thing about the demo I never figured out was what the HQ leader attributes were. You know, those little hearts and lightning bolts and stuff. ------------------ "I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted April 9, 2000 Share Posted April 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts: One thing about the demo I never figured out was what the HQ leader attributes were. You know, those little hearts and lightning bolts and stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I dunno for sure, but aren't the hearts and lightning bolts there to say that particular leader is bold and a good motivator? I just know when you highlight the command guys and click <return>, there's a line giving some +1's in certain areas. I'm assuming that's what those little thingys stand for, but I'm not claiming any kind of authority... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 9, 2000 Author Share Posted April 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts: I assume you're talking about the manual potentially being a 350MB dowload? Damn, is it really that big? Lots of pictures, I guess, huh? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> NOW WHAT KIND OF SILLY QUESTION IS THAT!!!??? Only kidding Mr.Guts. PDFs can get really big. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 9, 2000 Share Posted April 9, 2000 Whoops! Misread Lewis' quetion. I thought he asked if the Gold version could be downloadable (been asked many times in the last year ), but rereading he asked about the Gold Demo. No to the final, yes to the Gold Demo. Size of that sucker will probably be a bit bigger due to the larger textures we are now using. Dunno how much bigger though. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest major_tom Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 I don't want to sound like an anarchist.. But 350 megs is not too big for a download, Steve is totally correct to suggest that a secure download web site where you pay money via a credit card and then download the software is not cheap or easy to set up. I was really hoping BTS would do it anyway. There are 200,000 cable modem subscribers in the Toronto-Hamilton (Ont.) Golden HorseShoe area. I mention this because many people now have high band width service. AND Underground Warez servers and sites like Hotline routinely (everyday 24-7) serve very large downloads to people/users who do not pay for software they should being paying for. Please check out: http://www.bigredh.com/index2.html They may have a cheap solution for you to permit you to automate (think saving money on labour) the pay by credit card download software process. I would humbly suggest if you are in the business of selling some thing that could be downloaded, (and both the manual , in its Acrobat format, and the 350 meg game "could" be downloaded) then why not let those people/users with high band width connections spend their money and get instant gratification. I would also humbly suggest, (please do not be offended by this) that there may be some highly literate computer users (mostly the younger ones who know what and where the warez are) on this board who will find the Combat Mission Gold Release stuffed/zipped and saved as a Disk Copy disk Image on a Hotline Warez server and they will download it weeks before their CD_ROM and Manual comes to them in the mail. I would suggest your game will be being downloaded for free from a HotLine server somewhere outside the USA with in one week of its public release. I'm sorry to say this but to get the gold master downloaded for free across cable modem, 350 megs is not too big. If a cable modem could sustain a download rate of 128 Kbps (kilobytes per second) (it can,) and the file was 350 Megs big it would come down at about a Meg a minute that would mean an over night download on a cable modem and it would be finished in about 5 hours and 48 minutes. OK lets say about six hours. I'll bet there are users here who read this who have downloaded these kinds of file sizes in the past. To have the game in my hot little hands the next day (overnight) I would happily pay the additional equivalent of the overnight shipping charge as a premium for download of the Gold Master.... I hope that this will stimulate conversation for your benefit. Check out hotline.. I bet there are more than a few Hotline users here that read this that know this underground frenzy of free downloadable software is out there for the taking. Sadly I wonder if your new game will be the NEXT big thing to be downloaded for free from a Hotline Server... A little back ground on Holine servers. They are mostly computer servers run by teens and computer geeks in their parents basements or garages. These server admins mostly "deal" in pirated software and typically are VERY proud of their Large collection of pirated software. They "trade" pirated software with other Holine Admins and brag about who has the largest collection of high end grahics software or the latest games that for the most part, most of them don't have any idea how to use or play. Now lets see who I have just offended.... comments? And Yes I do think this a GREAT game even in it Beta Demo 3 scenario pre-relaese! And yes, I have preorded the game and I will pay for it, but If I could down load it for free (because it is sitting on someone elses Hotline Server) before it came in the mail..... well.... What can I say -Tom W P.S The Moral of the story here is if you can beat 'em, join 'em i.e. use a hotline server and credit card authentication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 I believe what you are describing is called, oh yeah... THEFT!!!! That's all I have to say about that. CrapGame out (looking desperately to find out how to get Von Shrad & his van to visit Canada....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Sorry to break the news to you, but cable modems and other fast connections service a tiny percentage of online users. I live in the US and probably won't get such service for 3 more years, but probably never. So 350MB is a big deal for probably 90% of our customer base. Especially for anybody outside of Canada and the US. Remember, most people in the world have to pay for each and every minute they are online (phone charges) and don't have access to the fast stuff for the most part. As for piracy... if I could put the warez people in a small lead box and drop them in the ocean I would do so with glee. I'd give em about 3 minutes worth of air so that they would have that time to think about what they have done. If everybody downloaded CM1 off of Hotline I can tell you for sure that there would be no CM2, CM3, CM4, and anything else we would cook up in the future. Why? Because we didn't spend about 5 man years working for nothing to be paid nothing. Piracy is one of the most indefensable thing out there, and I wish to GOD that our various law enforcement authorities would spend more time shutting them down and tossing the theifs in jail next to someone named Bubba. End of rant. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Good news, then, Steve. I just paid a visit to the hotfiles site (out of morbid curiosity only, I can assure you!!), and it's been shut own by court order. Serves the kewl warzdoods right! chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>350 megs is not too big for a download<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>many people now have high band width service<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Many, many more do not. All of them have mailboxes, however. Given limited time and resources, and unlimited projects, which would it pay BTS to pursue? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>there may be some highly literate computer users (mostly the younger ones who know what and where the warez are) on this board who will find the Combat Mission Gold Release stuffed/zipped and saved as a Disk Copy disk Image on a Hotline Warez server and they will download it weeks before their CD_ROM and Manual comes to them in the mail.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Those savvy webdewdz, what'll they think of next... so you think the main motive for piracy is the inability of gamers to wait for the Post Office? I thought it was plain cheap dishonesty. If, as you say, they pirate for bragging rights alone, then no real harm done- no serious gamer dollars were lost to your warez pals. If there's any upside to the pirating of CM, it's that some young pirate may get interested enough in historically accurate wargames to recognize that CM is something special and deserves the bucks to keep more of the same coming. If they're not serious gamers then, as I say, no real dollars were lost. What you seem to be arguing is that, because the game will be pirated anyway, BTS should adopt a means of distribution that will facilitate pirating, in order to please a minority of their loyal following who will be pleased anyway. PS: I had not seen BTS' response when composing the above so please don't interpret this as "piling on". [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 04-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Ah,nevermind! Sorry Fellas! ------------------ It is no disgrace to be defeated...It is a disgrace to be surprised. -attr.to Fredrick the Great- [This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-10-2000).] [This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-10-2000).] [This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest major_tom Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 "If there's any upside to the pirating of CM, it's that some young pirate may get interested enough in historically accurate wargames to recognize that CM is something special and deserves the bucks to keep more of the same coming. If they're not serious gamers then, as I say, no real dollars were lost. What you seem to be arguing is that, because the game will be pirated anyway, BTS should adopt a means of distribution that will facilitate pirating, in order to please a minority of their loyal following who will be pleased anyway. " Hi Thank you for your balanced reply. I figured this would be a controversial issue. What I meant to say in my original post that the pirating software is wrong and illegal. To suggest otherwise would make me sound like a fool. However let us not be blind to the fact that this is happening. When you state: "What you seem to be arguing is that, because the game will be pirated anyway, BTS should adopt a means of distribution that will facilitate pirating, in order to please a minority of their loyal following who will be pleased anyway." I must reply by suggesting that what I meant was that there are computer users out there who routinely download large 350 meg files. If BTS is in the game/software business there is a technology (Called the Hotline Server) which was designed specifically by Hotline to handle multiple users trying to download large file sizes. Not all Hotline servers have pirated software on them. I know BTS is not a really big big company but if they sell software and they do NOT want to put their game on store shelves (a decision which I understand and support) then it occured to me that BTS must have a relationship with a credit card authenitication service (presumably via a phone call) to facilate their mail order process, then why not authenticate the credit card and then allow a software downloaded. So What I am saying is why not let users who want to pay via credit card download the Gold Master from a server AFTER the money comes off the credit card. If, as Steve points out the number of people who would have the bandwdith via (cable modem) and the technical know how to do this are so few in number then the burden on their resources and their server will be quite minimal. I was trying to suggest that a low tech alternative is to capture the credit card info via e-mail or phone, then authenticate the credit and put the charge through just like if the box would be shipped, but don't ship the box, just e-mail the purchaser a ONE time only user name and password,good for ONE download only of the game and manual off of a secure web server or FTP server, that requires a user name and password to log on to. My point was that Hotline users do this every day for files that may be larger than 350 megs. Since BTS will have to authenticate the credit card before they ship the Cd in the box anyway why don't they authenticate the Credit card and then send an e-mail with a password to the buyer and let that buyer download the game. If it is the opinion of BTS that this kind of marketing and packaging (allowing people to buy the game in a downloadable format) will only help to facilitate piracy and illegal downloading of their copywritten game, my point is it does not matter if the game is in a form that is downloadable or not. The entire contents of any CD can be made in into a downloadable file format in matter of minutes so I am suggesting that if by choosing not to allow the download of the game BTS believes they are thwarting the pirates I would suggest they have only done so until the first one gets their hands on the CD that is shipped, after that the pirate will have no trouble posting the disk image of the CD on his server. I guess my point was that for a sub culture of computer geeks a 350 meg download (if left overnight) is not a big deal. I was not suggesting in any way that the game should be free, or pirated. What I was saying is that when it is released some one else could take the entire contents of the Gold master disk and post it for the purpose of download on a Hotline site. So there will be people who are prepared to wait for a 350 meg download. My point was simply that I would pay extra for the opportunity to wait for an over night 350 meg download of this wonderful game. I hope that this has not caused a flame war. I did consider the reaction to this reply before I started writting. I truly do not intend to offend Steve or BTS. Like everyone else here I want to get the game as soon as possible and being a computer geek (Mac Tech/Mac OSX Server Admin) myself I though I would mention that other computer geeks like to wait all night for large downloads of files they get off of remote servers. Hope that helps Now I suspect I hear from one of the network server admin tech guys at BTS and they will tell me their perspective. (I hope) Thanks I Still think it will be a great Game thats why I want to download the day it is released and play it the minute it finishes downloading.... Hope thats not too controversial.. -tom W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Secured ordering is a pain in the ass and an expense (someone has to get paid for the service and/or software). Some of the people out there offering such services want as much as 35% of the sale price!! My point here is that, contrary to the Pirate mentality, NOTHING is for free. Things either take time or money, most often both. Since the number of people that would want to download CM and NOT receive the printed manual could probably be counted on two hands, it isn't worth the effort. Having software for download will *NOT* reduce piracy even 0.000000000000001%. Pirates pirate because they feel it is the God given right to have something for nothing. Having a game available 3-6 days sooner than if ordered by mail is *not* something that will change this. Sorry, I've been doing this for almost 7 years now. Technology might change, but two constants always remain the same: 1. Those with the fastest whatever always want everybody to cater to them, no matter what itsybitsytiny headcount the represent. This is as true for 350MB downloads as it is for high end 3D cards of fast CPUs. 2. Pirates are motivated in ways that can not be combated by anything except for jail time. Trying to reason with someone who thinks they have the right to steal something already puts such people outside of rational thinking, and therefore they can not be reasoned with. Bottom line is that having a downloadable version will not gain us a single sale, and yet it will cost us time and money to set up. So where is the incentive to do this? Answer is there is absolutely none what-so-ever. Do not look for our products for secured online downloads in the near future for sure. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest major_tom Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Ok, Keep up the good work. I know it will be a great game. I believe in your vision and I salute your independace from the bigger (business suits) game publishers. Thats the same mindset (independance) that gave us Riven and Myst, two wonderful games. Good Luck, on wrapping up the project, -tom W P.S. Supposedly I spend so much "work-related" time on this board that one of my co-workers jokes that you should hire me as a consultant. For the record I am not a software Pirate, but I do know where they hang out in cyberspace... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Secured ordering is a pain in the ass and an expense (someone has to get paid for the service and/or software). Some of the people out there offering such services want as much as 35% of the sale price!! My point here is that, contrary to the Pirate mentality, NOTHING is for free. Things either take time or money, most often both. Since the number of people that would want to download CM and NOT receive the printed manual could probably be counted on two hands, it isn't worth the effort. Having software for download will *NOT* reduce piracy even 0.000000000000001%. Pirates pirate because they feel it is the God given right to have something for nothing. Having a game available 3-6 days sooner than if ordered by mail is *not* something that will change this. Sorry, I've been doing this for almost 7 years now. Technology might change, but two constants always remain the same: 1. Those with the fastest whatever always want everybody to cater to them, no matter what itsybitsytiny headcount the represent. This is as true for 350MB downloads as it is for high end 3D cards of fast CPUs. 2. Pirates are motivated in ways that can not be combated by anything except for jail time. Trying to reason with someone who thinks they have the right to steal something already puts such people outside of rational thinking, and therefore they can not be reasoned with. Bottom line is that having a downloadable version will not gain us a single sale, and yet it will cost us time and money to set up. So where is the incentive to do this? Answer is there is absolutely none what-so-ever. Do not look for our products for secured online downloads in the near future for sure. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-10-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 10, 2000 Author Share Posted April 10, 2000 Steve Realistically the software companies should make it harder for these crimes to be perpertrated. They should all ban together and get the government to support them. I am sure that most pirates wouldnt walk into CompUSA and steal a video card because its very difficult to do and easy to get caught. Likewise, the industry should make it difficult to pirate copyrighted software. Its all going to boil down to more expense for software developers. Theres no easy answer but I would do the following. People buy CDROM games and the low upfront cost (lets say $9.99)covers the packaging expenses. They take the game home and load it and they HAVE to get online to register WITH a credit card. Every time they play they have to pay a small fee online (they can pre-order multiple games for airplane trips with laptops). Lets say 25cents a game. There is a "code of the day" that gets them playing. After they have spent 50 bucks (200 plays), they can play for a nickel a game. They can never change credit cards and the game becomes non-transferable. Its just an idea but you get my point. Its up to the software industry to protect itself. It might mean a change in the way the industry does business. Make the CDROM just a tool like the computer itself, not the product. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEO Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username: Steve Realistically the software companies should make it harder for these crimes to be perpertrated. They should all ban together and get the government to support them. I am sure that most pirates wouldnt walk into CompUSA and steal a video card because its very difficult to do and easy to get caught. Likewise, the industry should make it difficult to pirate copyrighted software. Its all going to boil down to more expense for software developers. Theres no easy answer but I would do the following. People buy CDROM games and the low upfront cost (lets say $9.99)covers the packaging expenses. They take the game home and load it and they HAVE to get online to register WITH a credit card. Every time they play they have to pay a small fee online (they can pre-order multiple games for airplane trips with laptops). Lets say 25cents a game. There is a "code of the day" that gets them playing. After they have spent 50 bucks (200 plays), they can play for a nickel a game. They can never change credit cards and the game becomes non-transferable. Its just an idea but you get my point. Its up to the software industry to protect itself. It might mean a change in the way the industry does business. Make the CDROM just a tool like the computer itself, not the product. Lewis <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would never buy another computer game EVER again if everyone did this. It is just to damn inconvenient. EVERY time I want to play/use the software I have to pay? No thanks. If companies did this, I think my computer gaming addiction would go away (maybe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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