Germans, Nazis and SS -- oh, my!

[Juju]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I just want to point out that this sort of reaction is not completely irrational. By voluntarily choosing to associate yourself (however remotely) with a name, idea or concept, you (IMO) have to accept the baggage that comes along with that association.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This rather reminds me of Terry Pratchett's 'Johnny and the Bomb,' where a couple of English kids get transported through time to their town during the time of WWII. One of these kids (Bigmac? Not sure...) is a skinhead. He's not really a fascist or Nazi, but has a swastika on his jacket. One thing leads to another and some of the kids, including the skinhead boy, are arrested. The bit where the kid tries to explain to British officers that the swastikas on his jacket are merely there for fun is really funny, but also really scary.

After reading it I made my decision whether it was funnier than it was scary, or the other way around...

When I get home after work (always assuming this thing doesn't get locked up), I'll look it up and type out the page.

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I am not a racialist, but, und this is a big but, we in the National Bocialist Party believe das überleben muss gestammen sein mit der schneaky Armstrong-Jones. (Mr. Hilter)

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

However, I will argue that the German super-soldier is a myth started by the Roman Empire after their defeat by Germanic barbarians. I mean, think about it, the bloody Germans never won a war after that! 2000 years, people! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an excellent point. The German Armed Forces of WWII did have good units, but in general, they were not effective.

The nations they "beat" were nothing (no disrespect to the fighting men of these nations). Poland, Denmark, Belgium, Holland, Yugoslavia..... oooo. real scary, tough armies. (A bit sarcastic).

In effect, Germany beat up a bunch of really disorganized, and ineffective countries.

They ran into trouble when they went into the USSR.

You have to keep that in persepctive when you talk about "the skilled German Army." They lost to anyone that was decent.

------------------

Doc

We kicked those Axis Powers (Germany and Japan, and all those that fought for them) butts in WWII!!!

[Dr. Brian]

Sorry, I hope my "new" signature is "agreeable" to those that found the old one "offensive."

------------------

Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Wesreidau]

I use the handle "Wesreidau" - one of the primary characters in Guy Sajer`s Forgotten Soldier. This was out of respect for the guy, if he ever existed. Can anyone tell me how Sajer`s work has been qualified as fiction? I don`t want an argument, i`m genuinely interested to hear about this.

In my earlier years I used to be a rather obsessive SS freak, collecting militaria, devouring every novel, even had a poster of Wittman on my bedroom wall! When I look back (this was over 10 years ago) I feel rather embarrassed about the whole thing. I don`t think my wife would appreciate the Wittmann poster LOL. Please understand that I am not a Nazi or Nazi supporter but an ardent WWII history fanatic. I`m British, and had I been around at the time would have undoubtedly fought tooth and nail against Hitler`s legions BUT, and its a big but, what other army wore black leather jackets into battle? Oh my, they certainly had style.

Meine Ehre Heisst Treue....NOT

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"Any man who judges a nation is a peewit"

[MadDog0606]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Tom:

Quality wize, the best of the best in Germany were better than the best of the Allies. This was probably due to the fact of a LONG military tradition (not necessarily blind devotion to Hitler). There were some great Allied formations, but, these never managed to be better than the best of the German formations. Sure, there were many cruddy German formations, worse than the worse Allied units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the kind of topic I wish this thread had stayed on. I bought "U.S. War Department, Handbook On German Military Forces" at Barnes and Nobles. This book talks about the training of the German army. And how the training was good all the way up until the last couple of months of the war.

This book does not talk about who is evil and who isn't. And it is rather interesting reading.

I lucked out in that I was looking for a book on tactics for CM when I came across this one. I bought it because I figured I wouldn't be able to find it again.

If this thread isn't closed by the time I get home, I'll tyr to find the part that talks about German military training.

Before people jump to conclusions. I am a Libertarian. And no, that's not a religion.

[Major Tom]

Personally I don't care for what is in a person's profile.

Beating France in 1940 was a brilliant feat. Belgium was also a tough opponent. The German army just wasn't lucky, it had a very skilled high command that was gradually destroyed by Hitler.

In France, the Germans fought head to head with many good Allied formations (1st UK Armoured, 51st UK Infantry, 1st French Army, etc...) and made a great showing of itself. Sure, it didn't annihilate these strong allied forces, but, brilliantly outflanked them and defeated them without having to destroy them on the battlefield.

In Greece the Germans faced a well trained and highly motivated Greek and Commonwealth army. The battles were fierce.

In Africa the Germans had to fight with indifferent allies and severely outnumbered even with these allies.

In Italy, they held off vastly superior forces without causing much drain on other fronts.

The early war wasn't a pushover. The war with France so severely demoralized the German population as they assumed it would be a stalemate as in 1914-18. The best French and British units were as good as the best German units at this point in the war. The numbers were fairly equal, and were even slightly against Germany both quantity and materially quality wize! Germany fought the battle of France very well, against many tough opponents.

Sure, if you grab up all of the German units, mix them together and average out their experience level it will be very poor when you compare it to the allies, but, other than the USSR, Germany had the highest number of combat troops mobilized. There were maybe slightly more than 100 US Divisions, around 130 Japanese Divisions, 100 French Divisions, against 300+ German divisions. Sure, with this many formations you are bound to have pathetically armed and motivated forces. If any of these allied nations had to mobilize as much of their population that Germany did their general quality level will also drastically fall. Even Russia didn't mobilize as large a percentage of troops (when compared to their population) as Germany did.

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrD:

Germany basically took on the world and came awefully close to winning.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How close did they really come? The Germans did have the chance to take western Europe but when they turned on the Soviets, and later the Americans, they were doomed from the begining.

It's one thing to play crack German units in a game while on even odds with the opposing force and great supplies. But would you play them if the battles were slighted more towards reality when you MIGHT have some of the neat Panzers and you MIGHT have fuel to move them and you MAY even have some ammunition. Heck, would one be so eager to play the Germans if you had to sit through a murderous artillery barrage or air attack? Would it be fun if your German forces suffered most of the causulties via indirect attacks over direct fire like it really was?

CavScout

[WineCape]

Now consider this:

Some of my previous country men/woman sat in relation to the ongoings in Europe during WWII at the bottom side of the world (South Africa!).

What do they decide? Yes! we agree with the hole Nazi ideology.

Can you belive this: They decide to start an institution called the Ossewa Brandwag, freely translated from the Afrikaans language to English it means the Flaming Horse-cart watchmen, siding with the Black gumboot 'uns in all their Nazi splendour!

Ha! Never under estimate the power of "Night rituals on the human spirit.

Clandestine night meetings, dagger oaths the works.

Silly buggers I say, but according to my grandmother (age 82) comment when quizzed about this rationale of suuporting Hitler "It DID look NICE -- all these black clad dissiplined men!"

Serious?!? I suppose the bad-ass look factor counts here for me, hehe.

Murphy's law on artillery: Friendly fire it aint!

[Hamstersss]

Dr. Brian,

When qouting a post with a smilie, please don't remove it, as you change my silly joke into a simpleton's statement. I think you are the match that lit this silly powder keg and have forced us to reestablish the fact that we are all adults here with complex personalities.

There's a great saying that goes something like this:

"Every situation was perfectly suited for the result it achieved, otherwise it would have achieved a different result."

I think this is the case with this forum. I think we all worry about the nicks and whether we are acting irresponsibly in playing a game without discussing the very serious moral issues around the era. I also think it is necessary to have outbursts such as these to provide ourselves with an opportunity to discuss these issues and that's why they blossom, so we can make up for the pointed lack of discussing these issues on a regular basis.

This is a CM forum. It attracts witty and intelligent people who have an affinity for World War II. WWII wasn't just about StuGs, MG-42s, Easy Eights and Tommies. It was also about some pretty significant political and social movements and its healthy to debate them from time to time.

------------------

You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[WineCape]

Sorry, me spelling is woeful in the above post, there being no spellchecker here on the BB.

English my 3rd Language here!

BTW, I predict this posting will be running longer that a 1000 replies, hehe

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87:

Ill give you that one, it was a combination of Hitlers shortsightness, always fighting, and a combined world effort. For the time they were on the offensive they really were quite efficient at breaking lines and eveloping the enemy. In the end they ran up against a larger army with more weapons

And yes I learned after the V4V series of games that the germans almost never had Mech infantry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or even motorised infantry.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

This is the chinaSyndrome as I like to call it. I would hardly call the chinese army anything great. But they sure can throw some cannon fodder at you. I think we could have produced a better tank than the sherman and I believe all the crews who watched in horror as thier shells bounced off Panther and Tiger tanks only to watch a 3 foot hole open up in thiers would agree.

Gen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hardly call the Sherman 'cannon fodder'. One thing people always seem to forget was the US had to build a tank that could transported to Europe or the Pacific to do the fighting. How many Shermans could your throw into a tansport ship over a Panther or Tiger?

Cav

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

When qouting a post with a smilie, please don't remove it, as you change my silly joke into a simpleton's statement. I think you are the match that lit this silly powder keg and have forced us to reestablish the fact that we are all adults here with complex personalities.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, come on already. It's like you think I did that on purpose? For crying out loud, I try to add to the discussion without debasing with any Nazi/Pro-German stuff some are intent on discussing (in fact, I agreed with your statement about the myth), and your saying I'm calling you a simpleton?

Man, some of you crack me up.

Once again, I didn't "start" anything. My orignal posts were about major howard and Fuzzy logic. If you look at them, you'll see in no way did I instigate anything. How did Fuzzy Logic get derailed???? Not by me.

This was an honest question posted by Leyland (sp?) and deserved some answers.

Go ahead, fire away at me, seems to be the only thing all of you are good at.

------------------

Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[WineCape]

No pun or flames intended to Italians here but here goes:

The thinnest book in the Rome state library is the "Citation book for bravery medals awarded to Italians during combat in WWII"

A JOKE Gentleman, a JOKE!!

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout:

How close did they really come? The Germans did have the chance to take western Europe but when they turned on the Soviets, and later the Americans, they were doomed from the begining.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is debatble. My personal belief is that they DID come close.

It wasn't like the world was saved by a miracle, but still..

But that's been debated before. Even in this forum.

Of course, good what-if debates are always a pleasure.

------------------

Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

For some people, opining that the German soldier was the best fighting soldier of WW2 is akin to Nazi-worship. Whether we like it or not, it is a fact, although it is clear that not ALL German soldiers were of this ilk.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this really true? How does one determine who is the 'best fighting' soldier? The Germans certainly had more experienced men for much of the war and green US units would be at a disadvantage untill they 'learned' the ways of comabt.

Cav

[Specter]

Cavscout,

What the hell have you been smoking son?

The Whermacht were in the streets of Moscow!

If they had started Barbarossa a month or two earlier Russia would have fallen!

The allies would never have gotten off the beaches had the panzer divisions been placed closer to the front like Rommel had pleaded!

Hitler's meddling in the military affairs had significant repercussions for the German military forces!

They came very very close to winning!

[RMC]

It seems that the theme of The Forgotten Soldier being fiction pops up occasionally. For some it seems that the fact its authenticity has been challenged is enough to classify it as fiction.

Here's a link to at least some discussion that appeared in military history journals.

http://home.t-online.de/home/rcunningham/sajer1.htm

[Hamstersss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

Oh, come on already. It's like you think I did that on purpose?

Man, some of you crack me up.

Once again, I didn't "start" anything.

How did Fuzzy Logic get derailed???? Not by me.

Go ahead, fire away at me, seems to be the only thing all of you are good at.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dr. Brian,

I don't quite know how to respond to all of that. My statement was a joke, as evidenced by the smilie. Instead of treating it as a joke, you took it to back up your stand. As far as "Firing away at you" its just that you oversimplify things and, being a soc/anthro grognard, I try to explain why you're not quite correct.

So you "normal" grognards can understand ( ), it would be the equivelent of me showing up and saying:

"Dooooodz, the King Tiger is a badass tank and cannot be defeated." Though the King Tiger is a good tank, you would be right to explain that it is an oversimplified statement, right?

It could be that I'm the one who is oversimplifying, of course. If this is the case, then I will happily take my thousand lashes.

And by the by, it irks me that you only chose to respond to the initial statement in my post and nothing else. Perhaps you only read what people "Fire" at you and no more. This would cause you to believe that people are only "Firing away at you."

------------------

You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Reverendo]

In my humble opinion, the German army (specially the Waffen SS) had a better training and equipment than its opponents. At least, in general terms. Both world wars have ended up being Germany against everyone else (except for those of you who might think Italy actually did something relevant, which I doubt), so if you think about the fact Germany held its place for 6 years against the rest of the world, then it's easier to understand they were incredible soldiers.

I come from a Scottish family, and it is my duty to say the British have also shown an amazing training and a great display of gallantry when their country was attacked, but their effort might not seem as remarkable as the German's because, even while geographically isolated, the British were not 'really' alone.

The German army was well organized, well driven, well trained and well armed, always operating with great accuracy and efficiency. It is true that other armies (the Romans and so on) have also shown the upper hand, but we are now talking about 1939/1945, when the Germans were much like the Romans in their time. And yes, I do have to stress I think the difference between "German Army" and "Nazi" is not small. But sadly, the German Army of 1939/1945 was the army of Hitler, and the symbols of the army were the symbols of the Party, which might take to misunderstandings.

I do not, though, support the German Soldier myth. German soldiers were certainly not supermen, and that is exactly what makes me praise them. They were killed by bullets, and feared getting killed. They felt cold in Russia and heat in Africa, they got tired, they thought, they cried... but they stood, knew what to do and did it as good as they could (which was greatly above the standards), and so my hat is off to them.

Reverend Mr.Black

P.S: I play CM with both sides.

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Specter:

Hitler's meddling in the military affairs had significant repercussions for the German military forces!

They came very very close to winning!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the excuse German Generals were using for years, because Hitler was dead (he couldn't "defend" himself, and the Soviet war records were "closed."

If, if, if. If Stalin didn't purge his officer corp, Germany never would have gotten over the Bug River. How many ifs can we come up with?

------------------

Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[This message has been edited by Dr. Brian (edited 08-25-2000).]

[TankDawg]

Come on Specter!

The Soviet Union had already moved it's industrial core to the east and would not have surrendered simply due to the fall of Moscow.

I know the board will correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that this was pretty common knowledge.

------------------

Jeff Newell

TankDawg

[Major Tom]

Thanks RMC, that was an interesting read.

I think that I am going to give up on debating, too many people sitting on high horses defending their opinion by ignoring the facts.

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Specter:

Cavscout,

What the hell have you been smoking son?

The Whermacht were in the streets of Moscow!

If they had started Barbarossa a month or two earlier Russia would have fallen!

The allies would never have gotten off the beaches had the panzer divisions been placed closer to the front like Rommel had pleaded!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought that the Germans were stopped well short of Moscow, at Stalingrad, and that the halting of the German offensive actually occured before D-Day. (corrections welcome)

-Andrew

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Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I thought that the Germans were stopped well short of Moscow ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IIRC, there was a German recon unit that got close enough to see the spires of the Kremlin (some 30 km distant?) ... and then the Russian winter hit, followed closely by a Russian counter attack.

Joe

[Aloid]

Hell, this is easy.

I like to play games that take thinking, and the Germans have all the best pieces!

Most people don't understand how horrendous warfare really is. NOBODY who's been there wants to be there again. If they do, they are certainly on crack (or some such).

Aloid