billcarey Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Also - as an aside (I am a Latin major, so forgive me for this) Ceterum censeo Cartaginem delendam esse... Congrats though on having a Latin signature! BTW - if you want a more immersive experience, only look at the battlefield in "view 1" it's quite terrifying. - Bill [This message has been edited by billcarey (edited 09-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Can't please all of the people all of the time... See ya. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilger Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 First of all I love this game, BUT....Listen folks, I know these issues have been debated to the point of overload by our esteemed senior members who have likely contributed to this forum since time began.I am new here and this is a discussion forum not a resource database, so please refrain from suggesting a search. I feel the BEST FIX for AI TARGETING problems is to limit the CONTROL TIME the AI has over player units. Real time with a pause enables the player to immediately jump in and correct a targeting desision that jepordizes a units safety. This of course is mainly directed at Tank targeting preferences. V1.05 is nowhere near handling this issue in my experience. I contiune to watch dumbfounded while one of my tanks rotates its turret 90 plus degrees to engage the nearest target (almost always infantry)exposing itself to an Armor threat that is positioning itself for a kill. This is particularly problematic when using German tanks because the rate of traverse is considerably slower. I have no chance to recover. Say what you want out realism of command control BLA BLA BLA.... I play this game for fun! Through the experience of playing against the computer AI I have gained some degree of anticipation in relation to its tactics. Yet once a 60 second turn has started(a seemingly endless timeframe in combat)there is no chance to apply any experience I have gained to couter the computers tactics. Throw in AI targeting problems and there is as much frustration as enjoyment. I am NOT arguing the feasibility of these changes, as only BTS is qualified to make that kind of assesment. However for those of you who have experienced frustration over targeting you should consider realtime w/pause and its effect on these problems. Seems to me the more control we have over our units the less AI targeting will be an issue. [This message has been edited by Dilger (edited 09-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Dilger, If CM were realtime I think you would find yourself pausing the game ALL THE TIME, which totally defeats the purpose of realtime in the first place Also, games like Close Combat allow the player far too much control over the second by second action of a particular unit. While CM's TacAI might not be perfect, the net results are far more realistic. Also... how could CM ever be multi-player if it were realtime with pauses? In any case, CM is not realtime for reasons that have been discussed many times over. And because of this, CM will NEVER be realtime ever. It would be the quickest way to make the game a pile of hamster poo even in the eyes of the people that want it to be realtime. As for Jäger's original post... CM is what it is for a variety of reasons. If you do not like it, fine. But understand that you are in the minority (thankfully ) and therefore your opinion is not thought of as having much value in our eyes. It is far too easy to find fault with someone else's work, especially when you obviously aren't the intended audience. So no hard feelings, but I don't see why you should bother posting here. Waste of your own time for obvious reasons We already know that CM isn't for everybody, and therefore there is nothing new contained in your postings. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra: CavScout - I think the point is, why would you go to a forum dedicated to a game and say that you thought the game was boring and uninteresting? Since, logically, the people on the board actually like the game, you're not going to do much good except to get people annoyed. It's not as if Steve and Charles will suddenly say, "Good god, he's right! We'll get cracking on that RTS patch right away!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you want a company to make a product more to your liking it would make sense to post on their forums with what you dislike about their current product. BTS doesn't need a bunch of "yes men" on their boards, they need true opinions. You may, as I do, disagree with the poster but that is no reason to attack. This should[n't] be a "you agree with me or you're against me" forum. Cav ------------------ "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." --Bertrand Russell "God is always with the strongest battalions." --Frederick the Great "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." --Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-Jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary period, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which is likely to be the more ominous for the Axis--an American decision that this is sport, or that it is business." --D. W. Brogan, The American Character [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 09-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: In any case, CM is not realtime for reasons that have been discussed many times over. And because of this, CM will NEVER be realtime ever. It would be the quickest way to make the game a pile of hamster poo even in the eyes of the people that want it to be realtime. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I hope all of you babbling CM hamster-philes out there are happy with yourselves. Ya got Steve babbling hamster-speak too. Oh well, it's one of the added crosses that a forum moderator must bear, I suppose. (Now donning helmet and ducking for cover from the incoming hamster feces...only to find the foxhole filled with......) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Jaeger (sorry, but I can't do those cool 'a's!) where CM really shines is in its MULTIPLAYER aspect. NO AI ever designed can take the place of a human opponent. Where it comes down to those twitchy moments is receiving a PBEM turn waiting to see if your Zook took out that Mark IV or it took you out. The AI of the demo is not as good as the AI in the full game. Possibly try the demo against another human player, if you already haven't. This is where I got hooked! If not, then the game isn't for everyone anyway. I picture RTS games like a game of badminton. High pitched action, everyone likes it, but, it gets boring realy fast due to the simplicity of it all. I see turn based strategy games as like a game of Chess. More detailed, deeper thinking, it takes longer, and it isn't for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilger Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Steve, Thanks for your reply. I realize you are working on the targeting AI and have made it a priority in previous patches.It is your involvment in the discussion community and the willingness to address issues with players that has made this such a rewarding all-around game experience. Dilger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jäger: Why I don´t like the turn basing, that is because in a fight you do not have unlimited time to think. I want to use my Fingerspitzengefühl, not my head. Try to play a RT game with a human opponent and start pausing every 60 seconds. He will not play with you again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jaeger you still don't see what I was getting at do you? you don't see anything out of place in wanting a pause command in an RTS game?. Thats fine he may never want to play you again but your not seeing the irony here as in you still have to pause to give orders in otherwords; the very thing despised in TB games by RTS proponets. Now as you pointed out you prefer click fests to in-depth strategy thinking, thats fine & I can respect your choice as it is your choice to make and CM is obviously not for you. Regards, John Waters ------------- "Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Jaeger please...use Latin correctly! Praeterea censeo Chartaginem esse delaendam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 ooppsss.....sorry! Praeterea censeo Carthaginem esse delendam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Posted by Chupacabra: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CavScout - I think the point is, why would you go to a forum dedicated to a game and say that you thought the game was boring and uninteresting?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe for the same reasons I did when I came on the forum. If I remember correctly I said I tried the demo and didn't like it, didn't like the fact that it wasn't a 1:1 representation, didn't like the turn-based aspect of it, etc...and I got reamed for saying this. Was I trying to start a flame war? No. I was trying to get someone to convince me that I was wrong and that I should give the game another chance. I was looking for someone to tell me why they liked the game so much and then maybe, just maybe I'd be convinced to lay down my $45 and give the full game a try. Of course, most people took my post as inflammatory but when I read their raving reviews of the game, I figured that since there were some aspects of the game that I liked, I would pay the money and see if I could overcome the changes from Close Combat to CM. Well, suffice it to say, since it arrived in the mail, I have played a lot more CM than games of CC. I got used to the turn-based aspect and the abstract representation of men and really started to appreciate all the things this game has to offer that the others, including CC can't. Jager, if there are some things about the game you like and can afford to spend the money to take a chance and try something new and different, then I say go for it. I'm not the most open minded person but I gave this game a shot and it paid off. I can now understand what all the gushing was about. ------------------ Everything in moderation...except CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Great post Colonel_Deadmarsh. Cav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Thanks Colonel Yes, we have no problem with people coming here to figure out what it is that has got a lot of people (including reviewers) all fired up. And if you are coming from a RTS/Sim frame of mind, CM can be a bit of a shock to some of the core reasons for playing those games. But to suggest that one is right and the other is wrong is just... well... wrong Most of us like other game genres. I personally like(d) RTS and 1st Person Shooters. I grew tired of RTS though since the games I played last year didn't seem all that different than the ones I played 4 years ago. Same positives, same (annoying) negatives. But the last thing I would do is go over to the Close Combat or Red Alert forums and try telling them that they are wrong and that the games in question are boring. There is no point in doing that, and it only makes you look to be a bit foolish. Jäger, if you think there is no hope for you liking CM then it is best to stay away from this BBS. But if you intend to reexamine your initial reaction, to see if there is something that you missed, feel free to stay and poke around. Best thing to do is use the Search function though as all your observations have been discussed before in great detail. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Besides, I can't drink my beer and eat my peanuts while trying to play an RTS game. This is one of the secret gifts of CM. ------------------ The counter-revolution, people smilling through their tears. Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DEF BUNGIS: Besides, I can't drink my beer and eat my peanuts while trying to play an RTS game. This is one of the secret gifts of CM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now that's the most important single contribution against RTS I have ever come accross. DEF, before the WEGO let me buy you a drink. ------------------ Either he's dead or my watch has stopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Uhm Jager why did you bother posting. Obviously there was some impact on you since you are taking time to post. Then responding later on which means you are still monitoring the web site. As for turn based let me remind you of one detail, Gamespot named the best PC game of all time being X-com. The greatest point was it's interface and gameplay. It is very similiar to CM's. CM's gameplay I would say is the best of both worlds. If you have only played one RTS then how can you say that it offers a more tactical advantage. Anyone that needs gore to better appreciate a historical wargame needs to find a veteran and see what he or she would appreciate. Games such as CM and others can be a sign of respect when done right, and a mockery when done wrong. Blatant gore in games portraying real suffering is pathetic. THe last thing I need to be reminded is that my Grandfather could have ended up that way. Now I have no problem that you did not find CM to your taste and are more than entitled to your on opinion. Hell I think racists are the worst but I don't go traips'in into the neo nazi rally with a sign that says so. There are reprucussions to that and I have enough common sense to refrain from that action. Your style of writing was very antagonistic. Almost derogatory. A lot of people have put alot of work into this game that you do not even know about. Please in the future become informed and exercise common sense before posting because instead some possible good ideas you might of had for improving the game I am just hoping I never hear from you again. ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 I think the difference, Colonel, is in presentation. If someone were to come in here and say "I didn't like the demo, here's why. Is there anything I missed that might make the full version any better?" I imagine that person would get a much different response. However, Jaeger basically said "this game sucks," no question or constructive criticism inherent. It's all about how someone presents their ideas, not about the ideas themselves. I came from the Close Combat series myself, my wargaming evolved from Kampfgruppe, way back when. I played the CC series because it was new, and fun, and I thought it to be a very good representation of WWII squad-level combat. After trying CM, and talking to the folks on this forum, I saw how wrong I was. I bought it, and immediately convinced my brother to buy it, so we could beat up on each other. I can see what Jaeger is saying - having one of my men drop dead on the field or run off the map while the squad takes fire does add a little bit to the immersion factor. However, I don't play the game to be immersed - I play it because it is fun and it is a very detailed representation of WWII combat. What makes it fun for me, and what I play for, are not the same as he, apparently. The other reason that I think Jaeger received the responses he did was due to recent events, which have people somewhat upset in general. Anyways, Jaeger, not everyone will like the game. Is there anything you were trying to say by posting other than "I don't like the game?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PawBroon: Now that's the most important single contribution against RTS I have ever come accross. DEF, before the WEGO let me buy you a drink. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I might take you up on that offer there Pawbroon. If we could just E-MAIL beer...... ------------------ The counter-revolution, people smilling through their tears. Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infohawk Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Average CM poster in response to Jager: How dare you post anything negative about CM! Since you don't like turn-based games, you must be a troll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 I wasn't going to post anything, but it's turned in to a trollfest, I will reply to Jager's original post. Jager, sorry to hear you find CM to be something of a disappointment. It seems that a lot of this stems not from a realism standpoint or that you think the game is inherently flawed, but from the WEGO system it uses and some of the programming choices made (# of troops shown, blood, etc.) I think you made your points well and with good manners. I (and many others here, I'm sure) think you are missing out on a good game and a really fun time. The game can get quite intense, especially in some larger scenarios where there's a lot going on. This is where the WEGO system is a bonus, I think. With RTS, smaller parts of a large action can be forgotten or lost in the shuffle. In CM, you can replay the last 60 seconds from several viewpoints (try 'locking' onto a tank going cross country with view 1) from any point on the battlefield. Relive the moment you finally killed that last StuG! Pick the perfect moment, take a screenshot and make it your wallpaper (I do). I was a bit hesitant when I first downloaded the demo and saw it was not RTS, since that seemed the way of the future for computer games. I quickly came to like the WEGO system, though, and don't think this game would be nearly as good if it were RTS. Hope to convince you, but understand if I/we don't. ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philistine Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk: Average CM poster in response to Jager: How dare you post anything negative about CM! Since you don't like turn-based games, you must be a troll! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, it seems more like: Ummm...that's nice that you don't like it. Why did you come here and tell us that? And why did your tone have to be so antagonistic? My question is: If you don't like turn-based games, and you've only played 1 RTS game, why would you think you would like the game? (OTH, you might want to give both genres a little more of a try). Also, anyone else thing its strange that he referred to the size of the demo as "huge?" Wasn't it only about 14M? Don't get me wrong, I remember when that was huge, and I only have a 56K modem, but now most demos seem to run about 90M. Oh well. --Philistine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Check6 Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Jager, if you're still around, email me and we'll have a go at it. You pick scenario, you pick sides... I want you to have as much fun as possible =) checksix224@aol.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. T Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Wow your right! I mean, not liking CM and all is a little weird I suppose, although still believable. But the 14M being huge thing! Something strange is going on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 oh well guys!...CC2 (CC3 and more are a little ****ty) is completely different from CM...but as a former Cases Ladder #1 I can say that CC2 is a very good adhrenaline game! No adhrenaline in CM but it is more realistic and can simulate a batallion level battle very well. So I enjoy playing CC2 as well as CM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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