The anti-tank gun and its observer.

[AdamPraha]

Hi

QUESTION NUMBER 1:

If I put a hidden observer within 50 meters (It will be hidden).

So even though he'll be "hidden, he'll be transmitting and shouting "on the gun the coordinates of the enemy tank he's discovered ?

QUESTION NUMBER 2:

StuG - Anti-tank is constantly trying to rotate and measure from where he's being shot at. But I gave him the order to shoot the advancing enemy infantry before the enemy tanks appeared. As soon as it rings against his armor...he immediately cancels the order to fire and rolls over.

Of course, I need him to stop the enemy infantry with HE before they reach my trenches. How to get it to stop spinning over and over again. And instead spit his HE ammo into the advancing enemy?

https://postimg.cc/4mWzbKHZ

Every time he cancels my order. As you can see in the picture...

Edited March 24 by AdamPraha

[chuckdyke]

53 minutes ago, AdamPraha said:

And instead spit his HE ammo into the advancing enemy?

If it's TacAI is not coded as such you will probably come out 2nd Best. It is just my opinion. To find out for certain make a testing scenario in the editor. To establish reliable horizontal communication, I think you need to be inside four action squares. Better three action squares that is 25 metres and the Stug needs to be unbuttoned. 

Edited March 24 by chuckdyke

[Brille]

Do I understand your problem correctly ? You are wondering why the STUG won´t area fire at a point while being under canon fire, right ?

If Iam: Isn´t this kind of obvious why the Stug don´t want to be hit in the side ?

It is a general TacAi behavior to face the vehicle in the direction of enemy fire or vague enemy tank/anti tank asset - contacts. More so the TacAi can call for a retreat when bigger shots are intercepted by the armor and the crew cannot see the source of it.

And this would make sense as the crew should have some self preservation instinct in them. Staying in there longer the next hits may penetrate the armor or damage important components of the tank.

So the best idea would be to displace to another position as your current one has been compromised.

Edited March 24 by Brille

[AdamPraha]

6 hours ago, Brille said:

Do I understand your problem correctly ? You are wondering why the STUG won´t area fire at a point while being under canon fire, right ?

If Iam: Isn´t this kind of obvious why the Stug don´t want to be hit in the side ?

It is a general TacAi behavior to face the vehicle in the direction of enemy fire or vague enemy tank/anti tank asset - contacts. More so the TacAi can call for a retreat when bigger shots are intercepted by the armor and the crew cannot see the source of it.

And this would make sense as the crew should have some self preservation instinct in them. Staying in there longer the next hits may penetrate the armor or damage important components of the tank.

So the best idea would be to displace to another position as your current one has been compromised.

I understand. It's basically optimized behavior. The truth is, not all crews were well trained. And coming under incoming fire is not a good idea.
 ( Although it looks good on the map)

Have a good night. (or day)

[Thewood1]

The entire point of this game is that not all crews are well trained or experienced.  Thats why designers can set those specific parameters on every unit.  They have significant impact on behavior under fire.

[AdamPraha]

QUESTION NUMBER 1:

If I put a hidden observer within 50 meters (It will be hidden).

So even though he'll be "hidden, he'll be transmitting and shouting "on the ARTI-gun the coordinates of the enemy tank he's discovered ?

Edited March 25 by AdamPraha

[Chibot Mk IX]

I need some test to refresh my memory, but hide command will reduce the verbal communication range. 

[Vacillator]

7 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

I need some test to refresh my memory, but hide command will reduce the verbal communication range. 

I thought so as well. 

Hiding is not normally a good thing if you want a unit to spot (and communicate that).  I learned the lesson when I hid everyone and T34s rolled straight past my troops with PFs, no shots at all were taken at perhaps 10m range.

[Brille]

18 hours ago, AdamPraha said:

QUESTION NUMBER 1:

If I put a hidden observer within 50 meters (It will be hidden).

So even though he'll be "hidden, he'll be transmitting and shouting "on the ARTI-gun the coordinates of the enemy tank he's discovered ?

It depends... The range of communication between units is drastically reduced besides the inferior spotting. Imagine that a unit on hide keeps his head as low possible, maybe occasioanally looking Up to scout a bit and only whispers to others to not reveal its position to possibly nearby enemies.

So if the gun/unit is close enough they may still be able to communicate with each other but only at a short distance.

[AdamPraha]

Well, if he's not " hidden, he'll return fire.

It doesn't matter that he has a small permissive fire radius around him. He's gonna attract enemies like a magnet anyway.

 

The point is, however, another thing. The subject of the query is how to ensure that at a distance of voice call +50 meters...inform the gun about the enemy's position.

Example. There are 3 teams with the cannon. (The cannon is connected to him by a red line. It's the same artillery platoon.)

As long as they're on the same team. At a distance of +50 meters from each other...50+50+50= 150 spacing.

So they can see a huge area and if one of them sees an enemy they can open "cannon fire automatically ? That means the cannon can't see him. He's not a visible enemy for the cannon.

But he's still gonna shoot there?
Because a member of their team "told him so" verbally.

Edited March 26 by AdamPraha

[Brille]

3 hours ago, AdamPraha said:

So they can see a huge area and if one of them sees an enemy they can open "cannon fire automatically ? That means the cannon can't see him. He's not a visible enemy for the cannon.

But he's still gonna shoot there?
Because a member of their team "told him so" verbally.

That´s not how things work here.

Every unit needs to have a solid spot for direct fire. Units will carry their information to another units in their proximity that is right, but it only assists spotting nothing more.

Each unit has to see the target with their own eyes (or optics) before they can fire at it.

You mean some kind of so called "borg spotting": One unit sees a target, so everyone sees the target.

This was the system in CMx1 more or less, the older games, but in CMx2 it is no longer the case.

Edited March 26 by Brille

[AdamPraha]

1 hour ago, Brille said:

That´s not how things work here.

Every unit needs to have a solid spot for direct fire. Units will carry their information to another units in their proximity that is right, but it only assists spotting nothing more.

Each unit has to see the target with their own eyes (or optics) before they can fire at it.

You mean some kind of so called "borg spotting": One unit sees a target, so everyone sees the target.

This was the system in CMx1 more or less, the older games, but in CMx2 it is no longer the case.

I'm talking about the "forward" observer. ( We all know this from the Vietnam War. ... "yeah, throw napalm right at me. )

Someone who, in time of war, tells you to shoot about..... 100 meters further back.

Edited March 26 by AdamPraha

[Vacillator]

5 minutes ago, AdamPraha said:

I'm talking about the "forward" observer. Someone who, in time of war, tells you to shoot

But they have to go through the indirect fire procedure unless the gun crew also has the spot and can direct fire.  Or am I misunderstanding?

[AdamPraha]

23 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

But they have to go through the indirect fire procedure unless the gun crew also has the spot and can direct fire.  Or am I misunderstanding?

I'm sure that's true. They go through all the phases. They just gradually understand that "one of them sees an enemy tank.
They're in the same platoon. So all these groups 1,2,3,4 tell each other in turn. They're screaming at each other....?

Or is that what the game doesn't do?
 
What's going on.. What happens at a great distance away. And those are the coordinates to shoot at.
Or there's an enemy infantry hiding there and you need to aim a mortar.

So if they have the spacing to see if they can see and relay the information to the cannon or mortar. Although the cannon or mortar can't see the enemy at all.

Which would mean that the mortar or cannon can't see the enemy at all from its perspective. But by virtue of its " forward observer, it's still firing. (Blindly)

So I'm asking if it works in the game ?

Do they actually pass this information to each other in the game ? Or the game does NOT have it programmed at all ?

Edited March 26 by AdamPraha

[Vacillator]

I think they communicate, but if the mortar crew can't see the target (a unit or an area) I think they would have to be called in for indirect fire, which would take a few minutes.

I don't think they'll 'blindly' fire based on another spotter's info.

[Brille]

@AdamPraha Just to be clear: What are we talking about ? (On map) cannons or off map artillery ?

 

Anti tank guns and infantry guns need to have a direct contact that they aquired themselves. It is pointless if or if not another trooper of their formation has seen the target before. No contact, no shooty shooty.

Information can be shared by soldiers but that only means that the unit will have it easier to spot the enemy. It is not automatically visible nor is it guaranteed that he will spot the enemy too even with the same Line Of Sight. (LOS)

Infantry guns and some howitzers may be called in like artillery while being on map. However most maps are not big enough to use them properly (minimum trajectory).

Guns will only shoot automatically once an enemy appears in their sights and when they have a chance to destroy it (unit in effective range, proper AP-ammunition and so on).

 

Mortars are almost the same. If you are getting them up front they need to see the enemy for themselves to automatically engage them. Otherwise you need to set an area fire command on the desired place or you call them in via the artillery-setup option with an HQ unit.

The forward observer you mention is mostly there for artillery pieces like heavy guns and mortars. They usually can call those in faster than normal HQ teams and is therefor an important asset.

He won´t do any magic in terms of spotting. He has binoculars...that´s all.

For some heavy artillerypieces you even require a forward observer. Otherwise you have no access to it and therfor cannot fire it.

But again: Artillery will also not fire automatically, it needs a straight up input from you.

 

 

Edited March 27 by Brille

[AdamPraha]

The thing is, in the second game from a competing team...you can send a soldier to a spot to see...and he'll go back to the mortars and give the exact coordinates of what he saw on the hill. And the mortars start firing there.

I don't think they do that here in this game.

They just shoot what they see.

 

[AdamPraha]

Question: about shooting from panzerschreck from windows or rooftops ?

Are they doing it?

Or don't they and only shooting at the tank from the streets?

Edited March 27 by AdamPraha

[Erwin]

Some weapons cannot be fired from inside buildings (or can be dangerous to the firing unit).

[A Canadian Cat]

They will. Roof top will be not too bad but inside they usually suppress themselves. I once had a team fire from a small shed and lightly wound themselves. Basically the back blast has an effect if they are in an enclosed space.

[Brille]

4 hours ago, AdamPraha said:

Question: about shooting from panzerschreck from windows or rooftops ?

Are they doing it?

Or don't they and only shooting at the tank from the streets?

You can shoot out of buildings, even though they have a backblast but it is not always the best way.

Usually when you fire it indoors everyone in this floor gets pinned which makes follow up shots difficult and gives the enemy a chance to retaliate.

So rooftops, ruins, foxholes, craters etc. might be a better option if they are available.

There was a time in CM where it was not possible to fire those weapons indoors but BFC patched it out later.

 

11 minutes ago, A Canadian Cat - was IanL said:

They will. Roof top will be not too bad but inside they usually suppress themselves. I once had a team fire from a small shed and lightly wound themselves. Basically the back blast has an effect if they are in an enclosed space.

No offense but I call this a myth or maybe it was patched out as well some time ago... I don´t know.

In all my matches I never had a wounded soldier because of the backblast of those weapons. They get pinned or even panic but I doubt that they can be wounded this way (even though it would be realistic in some cases).

[A Canadian Cat]

16 hours ago, Brille said:

17 hours ago, A Canadian Cat - was IanL said:

They will. Roof top will be not too bad but inside they usually suppress themselves. I once had a team fire from a small shed and lightly wound themselves. Basically the back blast has an effect if they are in an enclosed space.

No offense but I call this a myth or maybe it was patched out as well some time ago... I don´t know.

In all my matches I never had a wounded soldier because of the backblast of those weapons. They get pinned or even panic but I doubt that they can be wounded this way (even though it would be realistic in some cases).

Well I do not have the save or a screen shot. I was surprised too. It happened in a small shed in RT. One of those 4x8m sheds. They fired and the shed came down around them. I forget if one or both of them were lightly wounded.

[Brille]

3 hours ago, A Canadian Cat - was IanL said:

Well I do not have the save or a screen shot. I was surprised too. It happened in a small shed in RT. One of those 4x8m sheds. They fired and the shed came down around them. I forget if one or both of them were lightly wounded.

Well so it was not the backblast that hurt them, more so the fallen planks that were coming down on their heads.

Though I didn´t believed that a backblast would destroy a building, even though it is some little shack. Are you sure it wasn´t something else ?

Note that even small arms fire can bring down a building, especially if it is such a fragile one.

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Brille said:

Well so it was not the backblast that hurt them, more so the fallen planks that were coming down on their heads.

I suppose that's true.

I didn't think something else was going on at the time but the building could have been damaged by other things I suppose. I really should see if I can do it again I suppose