Gruppe Boehm to Le Rocher - scenario update

[WimO]

Version 3 of my large/huge Gruppe Boehm to Le Rocher scenario has been posted at the Scenario Depot. It changes both American and German experience levels and adds Special Movement Rules.

Explanation: When I first play-tested the scenario I moved the Germans primarily along the roads, moving off-road only to  deal with American strong points that interdicted the advance. I felt that this was appropriate given the pitch black night and unfamiliar terrain. Recent players proved themselves to be more imaginative, stretching the German force right across the map and advancing over the American positions. Although this was fair and appropriate play, it was completely unlike what was possible in the historical situation. In response I have added Special Movement Rules to limit, but not entirely eliminate, off-road movement. Feedback received also suggested that the American 'Green' experience rating vs the German 'Crack' gave the German player an overwhelming advantage. Although a mix of 'Green' and 'Normal' appears appropriate for the American Division at that time, 'Crack' was certainly an exaggeration for the German side. Although at the start of June, Lehr was 'Green' for other ranks and 'Veteran' for officers, by mid-July Lehr would be a mix of 'veteran' and 'normal'. I have revised the settings by selecting 'Typical' and leaving it up to the program to randomly allocate the levels it has coded as appropriate to these divisions in July.

How the combination of these two changes will play has yet to be seen. I don't have the time to test it. Other players are welcome to revise any of my maps and scenarios as they please.  I will not be making any more revisions to any of my past projects and am abandoning my "6th Airborne East of the Orne" project. Work continues on my Operation "Coup de Main" campaign project.

 

[Vacillator]

Thanks Wim

As you probably recall I was one of those on the receiving end of the issues you describe.  In particular, this one:

53 minutes ago, WimO said:

the American 'Green' experience rating vs the German 'Crack' gave the German player an overwhelming advantage

which resulted in my Americans dying or running away more often than achieving anything useful.  This, combined with the *ahem* unequal force structure meant my *** was well and truly handed to me by my opponent @RMM, and I never felt I had any chance of success.  Given that we played the game for just over a year this was not the most pleasant of experiences for me .

[Artkin]

I have definitely chipped in with my opinion that crack troops are not realistic whatsoever, its like playing call of duty. 

[JoMac]

Not just specific to this Scenario, but the game system as a whole...

Yeah, any Infantry higher than 'Green' in CM is far too deadly, IMHO...I generally make Vet or Elite Troops in RL 'Green' with + Leadership & Motivation, Reg Troops in RL are Green with neutral Leadership & Motivation, and Green Troops in RL with - Leadership & Motivation.

However, I do make all Armor & Field Pieces 'Conscript' but use the above Leadership & Motivation bonuses or negatives...Thou, I still find Conscript Armor & Field Pieces in CM are fairly accurate in hitting targets at ranges after first couple rounds, but the more realistic slower ROF makes things equal out a little better.

With the slower ROF, reduced Sighting, reduced Casualties, etc...All seem to give CM a more realistic game feel.

Edited September 6, 2023 by JoMac

[Artkin]

1 hour ago, JoMac said:

Not just specific to this Scenario, but the game system as a whole...

Yeah, any Infantry higher than 'Green' in CM is far too deadly, IMHO...I generally make Vet or Elite Troops in RL 'Green' with + Leadership & Motivation, Reg Troops in RL are Green with neutral Leadership & Motivation, and Green Troops in RL with - Leadership & Motivation.

However, I do make all Armor & Field Pieces 'Conscript' but use the above Leadership & Motivation bonuses or negatives...Thou, I still find Conscript Armor & Field Pieces in CM are fairly accurate in hitting targets at ranges after first couple rounds, but the more realistic slower ROF makes things equal out a little better.

With the slower ROF, reduced Sighting, reduced Casualties, etc...All seem to give CM a more realistic game feel.

100% agreed. 

Conscript foot troops are too inaccurate at range but are able to fight realistically in urban areas - something green can't replicate. 

Green troops are much better for open anything except city or town fights. 

Regular troops are just too insane at times, acting like fearless cyborgs. 

 

For the vehicles concript hits the head EXCEPT the bogging rate is INSANE. I don't even want to talk about it, it's SO STUPID. I have vehicles bog on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING all the time INCLUDING ROADS! It's SO FRUSTRATING that battlefront refuses to make their games realistic and instead opt for everything to be call of duty. SO MUCH FOR REALISM! 

 

As for the honing in on targets, yep. I used 45mm guns on a huge map with very long lines of sight. The AI was picking off my armored cars with ease from over 3km away (Probably 3.5-4km) while they were travelling perpendicular to the guns. 

The AI gets too accurate once they hone in, it's like a laser beam. And that's with conscript guns. 

[JoMac]

I feel your pain, my Brothren...

Yeah, I have been play-testing Green vs. Conscript Infantry for years and find myself going back to Conscript more often than not. It's ultimately a good compromise for both Urban & Rural games with not too high a casualty rate (unless getting into Close-Combat ranges where high casualties should happen). 

What ever happened to RL when it took days to clear a town, but in CM you can do it in an hour with twice the casualty rate (I see this all too often watching YouTube WWII CM videos)...Of course, a lot of that has to do with no C&C Orders in CM (troops can do whatever they want at any time). 

Yes, and downside for having to use Conscript Vehicles is the high bogging rate, and the automatic targeting w/laser like precision in WWII...Sigh. 

So, and unfortunately, we have to use Conscript everything to remotely get close to Realism as possible in CM. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by JoMac

[thilio]

Hello,

Files do not appear in scenarios.

Is it the same for you?

[thilio]

On 9/8/2023 at 10:23 PM, thilio said:

Hello,

Files do not appear in scenarios.

Is it the same for you?

This was discussed with WimO in the scenario depot.

The problem is likely not having v4.04 installed.

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, thilio said:

This was discussed with WimO in the scenario depot.

The problem is likely not having v4.04 installed.

Make sure you're playing the new version, particularly if you're the US.

[WimO]

EXPERIENCE LEVELS: The above discussion about unit Experience levels is very informative. I would like you'all's feedback. At the moment I am working on creating a 24 hour campaign game called Operation Deadstick which involves British Airborne capturing and holding the bridge across the Canal de Caen (aka Pegasus bridge) on D-Day. The British airlanding are obviously Crack (Elite training watered down by Green experience) and the follow up British Paras either Veteran. The Germans opposite are initally unwilling veterans (Poles and Russians in the mix) and when elements of 21 Pzr Div arrive, willing veterans.

Given the terrain is mostly difficult and includes a fair bit of village fighting do you think that the following would work?

British Oxf & Bucks Airlanding: Green +1 motivation +2 leadership

British 7th Parachute Battalion: Green +1 motivation and leadership

German Bridge Guards 736 Gren Rgt 716 Inf Div: initially Green -2 motivation and leadership

German Bridge Guards 736 Gren Rgt 716 Inf Div: after rallying Green -1 motivation +0 leadership

1.Kp. Pionier 716 Inf Div (first attack vs bridge): Green -1 motivation +0 leadership

elements of 21 Pzr Div: Green +0 motivation +1 leadership

[WimO]

Given the above discussion I am also considering modifying the parameters of my Bloody Buron Overhaul eventhough as a 'game' it plays satisfactorily.

Cdn Inf (veteran): Green +1 Leadership +1 Motivation
Cdn Armour (veteran): Conscript+1 Leadership +0 Motivation
Off-map Cdn Arty (crack): Conscript +2 Leadership +1 Motivation

German 12SS Inf (veteran fanatic): Green +1 Leadership +2 Motivation
German Armour (veteran): Conscript +1 Leadership +1 Motivation
Off-map German Arty (veteran): Conscript +1 Leadership +1 Motivation

Feedback?

[Vacillator]

Hi Wim, not sure what to say without trying it, but I imagine no-one is going to try the old and then the new version.

Perhaps it depends on whether you're aiming for a re-enactment, or a good H2H?  This is tricky, as I like historical accuracy but hate getting steam-rollered like I did in Gruppe Bohm, in which the result wasn't historical either.

Anyway if I can help by trying out a set-up for anything, just ping me a PM.

[WimO]

I was just fishing for a general opinion/impression.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

For what it's worth, I've always found that motivation is at least as important as experience level.

Any units above normal will become superpixeltruppen and wade into fire they really shouldn't.

Normal, low, and poor troops suppress and break more realistically, imho.

[JoMac]

@WimO...Above Moral Levels will work fairly well for all Scenarios/QB, etc...However, make Off-Board Arty Green (with appropriate soft factors)...Arty in CM won't work well as Conscripts.

Green for Inf & Arty (including Bazooka, Schrek, ATR, etc)...Conscripts for Armor, AT Guns, AA (any piece that direct fires).

 

[kohlenklau]

@JoMac @Artkin

Just rolling off your interesting comments...

I call this the G&C approach!

Do you think that in a H2H battle, your G&C settings are less needed? 

Or how about a scenario where the human side is designated and only the other side has the AI plan? G&C just the AI side OOB?

 

[WimO]

@kohlenklau What is "G&C"?

[kohlenklau]

Green & Conscript

[Artkin]

48 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

@JoMac @Artkin

Just rolling off your interesting comments...

I call this the G&C approach!

Do you think that in a H2H battle, your G&C settings are less needed? 

Or how about a scenario where the human side is designated and only the other side has the AI plan? G&C just the AI side OOB?

 

Nah both sides always, for h2h and vs ai. Regulars are way too good especially after footage from ukraine, and reading/listening to books like "An artilleryman in stalingrad" or "Tigers in the mud"

[WimO]

Some more thoughts about Green & Conscript troops for realism.

Accepting the observation that assigning G&C Experience ratings to our pixeltruppen, then as a scenario designer I also need to substantially increase the length of scenarios. The historical events that I have recreated in my various scenarios all took place over MUCH long periods of time than the scenarios. So if we make the troops in our scenarios behave more realistically then more time will be required to effect the result.

I believe that most gamers want to play a game that yields results in a reasonable amount of time. What is reasonable will vary from one person to another but it is usually not four or five or eight hours. Looking at it that way, I would like to offer up the idea the Battlefront got it right. By making Regular and higher rated troops 'supermen' (on both sides mind you) it allows scenarios to complete in a shorter amount of time.

Summary: For realism make troops G&C AND increase scenario time by two to five times. If you want a reasonable length of 'game', use Battlefront's ratings. Choose your flavour.

 

 

[PEB14]

While I basically agree with the above, I'm not completely convienced that the G&C approach will yield the same results with more given time.

G&C will cower a lot more but will also get broken more easily. And you won't be able to achieve much with broken troops, whatever time you give them to fullfill their mission...

Additionnally, once you've expanded all your ammos, and in particular all your artillery rounds, you won't be able to do much against an entrenched foe...

So my guess is that you need not only more time, but also more ammo and more support assets to achieve the same results with G&C troops...

[WimO]

@PEB14Good points.

Edited September 15, 2023 by WimO

[PEB14]

@JoMac@Vergeltungswaffe

I'd be very interested to try a playtested C&G scenario against the AI. Have you ever designed and released any?

[JoMac]

I simply take Small Scenario's (what most players call 'Tiny') and convert them, or QB's against opponents (who I tell ahead of time what I'm trying to accomplish). 

I still don't think you need to add any additional time to Scenario/QB's when using Green & Conscript as I think these Moral levels work pretty well. 

I also use 'House Rules', including some of the following...Use of Rockin Harry Animation Mod (changes stances of some figures to help reduce casualties somewhat), No Enemy Icons (another Rockin Harry Mod), Let the Computer AI choose Targets (unless you decide to Area-Fire or Smoke an area), If you check LOS at a Waypoint then unit must keep that Waypoint until next turn, and couple other minor House Rules...Will also try and work on some quick C&C Orders at some point (this is where you may need to add additional time to Scenario's/QB's).

Edited September 15, 2023 by JoMac