StG44 vs SMG Performance at Long Range in CMRT: A Shocking Revelation

[Chibot Mk IX]

I know there have been complaints about the CM SMG's performance, which piqued my curiosity about their effectiveness at long ranges. To shed light on this matter, I conducted a series of tests using CMRT, comparing the StG 44 and the SMG. The results were quite surprising, as the SMG outperformed the StG 44 at long range. In this article, I will share the details of these tests and the implications they hold.

 

Test 1: Area Firing at Buildings

For this test, I deployed a 3-men StG44 team (split from an 80% headcount Sturmgrenadier Squad), a 3-men MP40 scout team, and a 3-men PPSh-41 scout team on the map. The target command was given to fire at buildings located 180m away from them. The results were fascinating. The StG44 fired single shots, the MP40 fired short bursts, and the PPSh-41 employed a combination of single shots and short bursts. (Video link attached)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1ElUaGi7WM

 

 

Scenario attached

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ivbvr1qbu6ul5n21wuedo/05-SMG-StG-evaluation.btt?rlkey=07pg80esu7mypeihj6scj8ni1&dl=0

 

 

Test 2: Lethalness Comparison between MP40 and StG44

To compare the lethality of the MP40 and the StG44, I set up an open terrain map with buildings blocking the line of sight between left and right. Both the MP40 and StG44 teams were placed in one-story buildings. At a distance of 180m, a Soviet rifle platoon was positioned in front of each team. I began the scenario as Soviet under scenario testing mode. A "hold fire" order with a target arc was given, and the number of casualties and bullets fired were recorded over five minutes. Surprisingly, the MP40 team caused twice as many casualties as the StG44 team. 

 

Scenario attached

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rkwf0av9adv4rkyertluy/06-SMG-STG-Evaluation-II.btt?rlkey=p9t19j7j7laew6juz5ajcy9yt&dl=0

 

 

Test 3: SMG vs. Sturmgrenadier Platoon

In the final test, I assembled a Sturmgrenadier platoon and an SMG platoon in an arena. The PPSh-41 and PPS-43 in the SMG platoon demonstrated a significant advantage compared to the StG44.the German side managed to secure one victory in ten tests, it could be considered a lucky outcome, as the Soviet side lost two squad leaders in the first turn.

 

Scenario attached

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/58ou60suywb05dj0b9rwz/07-SMG-STG-evaluation-III.btt?rlkey=7z89kmv246d05f6t1qvxtdhbn&dl=0

 

 

Conclusion:

Based on these comprehensive tests, it is evident that the SMGs in CMRT exhibit a level of overpowered performance at long ranges.

 

 

**************************************************************************************************************

While the StG44 was once known for its fire superiority at 100m in CMx1 versions, the current results indicate a clear shift in the dynamics.

 

The effectiveness of SMGs at extended distances calls for further study and testing.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Chibot Mk IX

[Chibot Mk IX]

Just before I hit the post button I run another test and noticed something weird, PPSh-41 and PPS-43 have different rate of fire when issued area fire command. As the attached video shows, PPS-43 behave more like a MP40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEh66ZGUtB0

That partially makes sense as PPS-43 has full auto mode only while there are several versions of PPSh-41 can make single shot. However the question is , will this fire rate difference cause any lethalness difference in CM gameplay?  This is something I need to look into later.

The fire rate table has been updated

	min 0	min 1	min 2	min 3	min 4	min 5		Rate of fire
StG44	0	53	97	151	194	251		50.2
MP40	0	126	248	379	492	624		124.8
PPSh-41	0	77	167	227	308	392		78.4
PPS-43	0	149	299	423	551			137.8

 

[Codreanu]

I'm not surprised that the PPSh beats the StG 44 at 180m, it's not really that long of a range and 7.62 Tokarev is a pretty hot round, but the MP40 results are definitely weirder. I'd be curious about if the StG 44 pulled ahead at 250-300m where an assault rifle really comes into it's own compared to an SMG but I'm not even sure if SMGs will engage at that range in CM.

 

IMHO at 180m the PPSh and StG44 should be pretty close to each other with the MP40 lagging behind both, so SMGs are without a doubt overperforming.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Codreanu

[chuckdyke]

45 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

I'm not surprised that the PPSh beats the StG 44 at 180m,

In a Debt Repaid F&R the StG44 was doing all right. Soviet Riflemen with the Nagant it was reported that the player needs to manually plot a LOF.

[Chibot Mk IX]

5 hours ago, Codreanu said:

but I'm not even sure if SMGs will engage at that range in CM.

SMG will not engage target >200m, that is the hard cap in CM games. However, stray bullet aimed but missed the target at the front may still hit the target at the rear rank. At least in my test scenario III, the German 3 men Platoon HQ is at 210-220m distance,  it was wiped out couple times.

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

In a Debt Repaid F&R the StG44 was doing all right. Soviet Riflemen with the Nagant it was reported that the player needs to manually plot a LOF.

Yes, also, the backbone of the German firepower in that scenario come from MG42 , 15mm, 20mm flak on the SPW. Sturmgrenadier just need to clear the rest of the shaking survivors out of woods.

It looks like the Debt Repaid was created before F&R new OOB implemented. The soviet Infantry Battalion OOB is still the old version. 9 men infantry squad in 3 teams, 2 SMG per squad. First Platoon is supposed to be a SMG Platoon under new OOB but in this scenario it is the regular rifle plt.   

[Traitor]

This is very interesting.

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the data correctly, but it seems that the SMGs are expending more ammunition in order to achieve this result? I would assume the StG44 is more accurate and hits harder generally speaking, but in WW2 titles without body armor, italso  makes sense that a higher ammunition expenditure leads to more casualties, as the sheer rate of fire might be able to offset the inferior accuracy and lethality compared to the StG44.

However I assume the StG44 will engage targets past the 200 hard cap that SMGs have? Perhaps that is the new niche for the gun.

[Bulletpoint]

16 minutes ago, Traitor said:

However I assume the StG44 will engage targets past the 200 hard cap that SMGs have?

It will, but at a very low rate of fire. Way too low for a semi-automatic weapon IMHO.

At medium ranges, both StG44 and Garands should be able to fire off quite rapid aimed shots, but it's either full auto or very slow aiming for both of them.

[Chibot Mk IX]

5 hours ago, Traitor said:

This is very interesting.

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the data correctly, but it seems that the SMGs are expending more ammunition in order to achieve this result? 

Yes, that is my understanding too. more bullets fired = more kills. simple like that. 

So far we don't know too much about the game mechanism on casualty caused by small arms fire. 

I just happened to read the reports from Drifter Man. It has a similar indication. The number of casualties is determined by a coefficient and is directly proportional to ammunition consumption, while inversely proportional to distance. These three values constitute a linear function. LMG, SMG and bold action rifle have different coefficient, and unfortunately for StG44, it has similar coefficient with other SMGs, so the StG44's low rate of fire at 150m -200m distance doesn't help. 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/enmae2qpysgkace/CMBN Weapons Tests 2020.pdf

page 24

 

Also the page 13 shows the relationship between the RoF and distance.

 

Note based on his page 13 and 24's graphic the MP40 is likely causing 100% more casualty than MP44. 

MP44 has 1/3 of RoF compare to SMG at 150m , and MP44 needs 200 rounds to causing a casualty at that distance while MP40 needs 300rds. 

my test has same conclusion.

his two reports can be found here

 

 

 

 

I think we can bring up two more questions.

Is it normal for SMG to keep a high rate of burst fire at long distance?

Assuming the high rate of SMG fire at long distance is normal, since most of the SMG have auto fire mode only while inexperienced soldiers are likely spray and pray, many of the bullets will miss the target due to recoil. Should SMG suffer more penalties on rounds per kill at >150m distance? 

 

 

[JoMac]

In Real-Life, I always thought that Small Arms Aimed Low ROF would cause more casualties over time, vs. say High ROF at ranges...It's the Close Range where High ROF wins.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by JoMac

[chuckdyke]

34 minutes ago, JoMac said:

In Real-Life, I always thought that Small Arms Aimed Low ROF would cause more casualties over time, vs. say High ROF at ranges...It's the Close Range where High ROF wins.

 

In the game Soviet WW2 the TacAI I found doesn't let a Soviet rifle squad engage automatically at 300 meters or over. Like to know about other players experiences.

[Traitor]

23 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

I think we can bring up two more questions.

Is it normal for SMG to keep a high rate of burst fire at long distance?

Assuming the high rate of SMG fire at long distance is normal, since most of the SMG have auto fire mode only while inexperienced soldiers are likely spray and pray, many of the bullets will miss the target due to recoil. Should SMG suffer more penalties on rounds per kill at >150m distance? 

I think the issue here is that "spraying and praying" in the general direction of the enemy is probably more effective than it is in real life as the bursts of fire seem to either be in the general direction of the enemy or missing completely, I don't think the game models how recoil causes each shot within the bursts itself to become increasingly inaccurate. And since SMGs in game can get more bursts off in the general direction of the enemy due to higher ammunition expenditure, they get more kills.

I'm not sure if they should artificially make SMGs take more rounds to kill, realistically, a 7.62 Tokarev at 150m will probably kill just fine, maybe they should just increase the chances of SMG bursts being completely off target and missing completely to better simulate the recoil.

[Sgt Joch]

As I recall, the original issue was that the TacAI is too accurate, I can recall early versions of CMBN where the AI would fire their Thompson SMGs like a mortar and hit targets 300+ meters away. Various tweaks were tried to get the AI to act more human like, but hey, it is an AI...That is why you have the current system with the hard range stop and reducing the accuracy of SMG fire. It works pretty well most of the time since SMGs are not a main infantry weapon. Where you have a problem is with units that are equipped just with SMGs, like Russian SMG squads, which are probably more effective than they should be at short-range, although there is not much than can be done without totally nerfing SMGs.

I ran a quick test a while ago and at 150 meters, SMGs had to fire 200 rounds for each casualty they caused.

This may also be of interest:

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Sgt Joch

[Bulletpoint]

I think SMGs are too effective at long range, but should be even more powerful at short range.

It's not only about accuracy and bullet spread, but also about how you'd use an SMG at short ranges, and how it's not really modelled in the game.

If you see an enemy soldier run across a road, you'd be able to start firing and then walk the fire on target while you hold down the trigger.

And if you see an enemy run into vegetation, you could hose down several bushes with a long sweeping burst.

But in the game, if the target is a running soldier, the SMG guy will adjust his aim but keep firing just behind the target.

And in the case of vegetation, he will choose only one spot and then unload a long burst into the ground at that point. Then choose a new point and do another long burst, etc.

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 7/27/2023 at 4:02 PM, Chibot Mk IX said:

Just before I hit the post button I run another test and noticed something weird, PPSh-41 and PPS-43 have different rate of fire when issued area fire command. As the attached video shows, PPS-43 behave more like a MP40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEh66ZGUtB0

That partially makes sense as PPS-43 has full auto mode only while there are several versions of PPSh-41 can make single shot. However the question is , will this fire rate difference cause any lethalness difference in CM gameplay?  This is something I need to look into later.

The fire rate table has been updated

	min 0	min 1	min 2	min 3	min 4	min 5		Rate of fire
StG44	0	53	97	151	194	251		50.2
MP40	0	126	248	379	492	624		124.8
PPSh-41	0	77	167	227	308	392		78.4
PPS-43	0	149	299	423	551			137.8

 

Update, PPS-43 is the most lethal SMG at long range in CMRT.

 

 

 

[slysniper]

In your own test, it shows that really the only factor here is not that one weapon is doing better than another. its showing that the weapon that the AI programming is firing the most rounds with is getting the most kills.

Per kill, what is the adverage number of rounds fired.  That is the number that is needed for comparison.

As for why they dont have all the guns firing in a similar method is a design question, not a question as to how the gun is performing.

 

As for game play, in general it seems there is plenty of Russians  packing PPS and if some of the units run out of ammo very quickly, I can normally find others to take their place, plus i can find extra ammo to reload my spent units. 

Where as STG44's  are rare to find  and if my men were firing all their ammo in a few minutes at units not within close range, I might be upset at that, since there is never any extra ammo to find and they are pretty weak once its gone.

I have no clue as to why they did it, but it does make sence to the supply and demand issues that the forces were actually facing at this period of time in the war.

[slysniper]

ok, just to show how testing  can draw  different results, just by how one sets up or views it.

With your own chart , the stg 44 out performs the mp 40 by how many rounds it takes to kill someone.

Stg 44 had 57 kills with 2296 rounds fired. 40 rounds per kill

MP 40 had 97 kills, 5765 rounds fired that is 59 rounds per kill

dont have the PPS to compare

but I will guess your last test, you had about 600 rounds and was getting 11 kills as a adv for those rounds, if that is approx correct. 

Your PPS was getting a kill for every 55 rounds.

 

So all you have proven is that rate of fire in the game favors the pps at 180 yards with these weapons

[slysniper]

Now, I ran a quick test that mattered to me, 

how does a squad of these units fair against each other at the range I want them to engage. 

So my test had opposing forces 45 yards apart behind low block walls.

What did I find out, 

first, if one group spotted the other first, they won the fire fight.

second , no concern about rate of fire, every one is using what they can

third, results out of a  Russian squad with 10 pps and a german squad with 8 stg44 and 5 rifles.

in a minute fire fight the germans won 3 battles, The russians won twice and the they drew once.

Now the russians did have 16 kills, the germans only 14.

 Conclusion, pretty darn even in a close up street fight.

what can I learn from this thread, If I have stg44 in a battle, make sure to try and engage at ranges over 200 yards , so I have the advantage.

or engage at the range where my stg44, start firing at a high rate of fire. which you do not bother to point out.

 

Lets guess it kicks in not much closer than 180  yards.  Maybe 150, I really dont know, but what ever range it is, Your PPS guns appear to be at a slight disadvantage for kills per round.

 

 

 

[Anthony P.]

Agreed, the variables are an entirely good fit to the conclusion, or vise versa. I'd guess that the PPS comes out on top because it has a high RoF, but not too high to be accurate like the PPSh.

The outcome in regards to the Stg is reasonable as the range is only long range for the SMGs and not for assault rifles, which sacrifice some RoF for the ability to reach the 300-500m range.