LOS checking method

[chuckdyke]

Leave it to the TacAI upon full contact it does the right thing. Blind area fire needs to be done with weapon systems designed for that purpose. Play test and experiment.

[chuckdyke]

The unit receiving fire didn't have an LOS but the US unit did have an LOS. The LOS always comes where you don't expect it. There are no LOS tools in CM for a reason.

[bruno2016]

is the Target approach to check beforehand the LOS from some way points accurate? My tanks have been several times been hit when moving to some way point, typically inside or behind some woods, even though the LOS line was pink or red to the area where the enemy shot came from. And the shot came from 900 m or more. It happened several times for instance in CMRT Clash of the Titans Redux. 

Anything I am missing?

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, bruno2016 said:

is the Target approach to check beforehand the LOS from some way points accurate? My tanks have been several times been hit when moving to some way point, typically inside or behind some woods, even though the LOS line was pink or red to the area where the enemy shot came from. And the shot came from 900 m or more. It happened several times for instance in CMRT Clash of the Titans Redux. 

Anything I am missing?

No it is a guide only, your TacAI decides when he has full contact or not.

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, bruno2016 said:

My tanks have been several times been hit when moving to some way point, typically inside or behind some woods, even though the LOS line was pink or red to the area where the enemy shot came from.

A quick thought is that their LOS may not be the same as your LOS.  For example you might have a buttoned up Stug with poor observation (not to mention soft factors), they might have an opened up IS2 with better observation.  LOF can also be different, your Stug gunner being 'low' may not be able to target the IS2, while the IS2 gunner in his turret can target your Stug.  Etc.

But that may not explain what you've experienced .

 

[chuckdyke]

14 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

A quick thought is that their LOS may not be the same as your LOS.

If they can hit you, you should be able to hit them. Which is not always true. The story of David and Goliath is the oldest example of this. David hits his adversary in the eye and that made Goliath to lose his head. OODA he couldn't Observe, Orient, Decisions neither could he Act. We experience the same with the TacAI from the players end.

[Vacillator]

2 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

If they can hit you, you should be able to hit them.

I don't think so, not if your gunner can't get a LOF but they can. For example a Stug behind a wall might never get a LOF over that wall, but an enemy can still hit the upper parts of the Stug.

Going back to the OP, they may just have spotted you quicker.  I'm sure we've all been KO'd by an unseen AT gun (with or without an elite crew).

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, Vacillator said:

I don't think so, not if your gunner can't get a LOF but they can. For example a Stug behind a wall might never get a LOF over that wall, but an enemy can still hit the upper parts of the Stug.

Going back to the OP, they may just have spotted you quicker.  I'm sure we've all been KO'd by an unseen AT gun (with or without an elite crew).

I said "Which is not always true". Read the above again. The 60mm Mortar in direct fire mode vs an MG42 is the most obvious example. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by chuckdyke

[Brille]

14 hours ago, bruno2016 said:

is the Target approach to check beforehand the LOS from some way points accurate? My tanks have been several times been hit when moving to some way point, typically inside or behind some woods, even though the LOS line was pink or red to the area where the enemy shot came from. And the shot came from 900 m or more. It happened several times for instance in CMRT Clash of the Titans Redux. 

Anything I am missing?

It is definetely not pin point accurate, just a general guidance. The point it is measured FROM is usually the highest point of the observing unit. If we talk about infantry it is either prone, kneeling or standing. If we speak about tanks the measuring starts at the highest point of the vehicle, where the commander sits. That´s not saying that only the commander is doing the spotting but at least it is one of his main jobs. Other crewmembers can of course participate in the spotting process.

Now the tricky thing is that the point you want to measure TO is not always the same. Sometimes you have bushes, tall grass, wheat or other stuff at said point or in between those two points. And the measurement only measures the ground level where you point it, nothing else.

So while you probably won´t spot any kneeling or prone infantrymen there, vehicles and tanks tends to be much higher in stature.

A better way to test LOS for vehicles/tanks is to go onto ground level and check with your camera how high your tank actually is. Now go to the point where you want your tank to finish his movement and mimic it´s height with the camera there (the height of the gun or cupola). If you now can see the potential enemy position with your own eyes, your unit will probably will spot the enemy vehicle there and vice versa.

It´s often not as easy as that because other factors will come into play as well but that would be a general guide on my behalf.

Sometimes the LOS/LOF can change a bit even if the factors (positions of the enemy and yours e.g.) haven´t changed at all. What I want to say by this is that tanks sometimes come into view and vanish short time after even if they were engaged, not to be spotted again. You can call it a bug but in my opinion it is "works as designed" (even if wih odd situations sometimes). Especially in woods I have this sometimes but I explain it to me that the wind has pushed away some treebranches enough to make a tank visible at least for a short time, only to cover it again as the wind turns.

[Thewood1]

13 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

If they can hit you, you should be able to hit them. Which is not always true

You're first two sentences are contradictory.  If you read it carefully, you can sus out what you getting at.  But its not clear.  Especially with your example.

[bruno2016]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:23 AM, chuckdyke said:

No it is a guide only, your TacAI decides when he has full contact or not.

so is it a bit like taking a chance when u think u move or stay out of sight but u might still be spotted regardless of the LOS pre-checks? Someone in this discussion thread told me the height of the commander in the vehicle determines what can be seen. If the enemy tank has a higher view point, then there is no reciprocal LOS. Here my Stug staying 1-2 turns behind light woods got shot up by an IS2.

[chuckdyke]

15 minutes ago, bruno2016 said:

so is it a bit like taking a chance when u think u move or stay out of sight but u might still be spotted regardless of the LOS pre-checks?

I found the Move Tool very useful. I can eyeball the endpoint. 

But the LOS Tool doesn't allow me to target it. The Vector is absolutely straight. 

But over the years I know the TacAI still generates contacts for me to engage. 

 

[bruno2016]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

I found the Move Tool very useful. I can eyeball the endpoint. 

But the LOS Tool doesn't allow me to target it. The Vector is absolutely straight. 

But over the years I know the TacAI still generates contacts for me to engage. 

 

ok interesting.

Btw would u be interested in playing Clash of the Titans Redux? Lots of tricky LOS, huge OBs, thick armor,...

 

[GhostRider3/3]

On 11/5/2023 at 2:33 AM, bruno2016 said:

ok interesting.

Btw would u be interested in playing Clash of the Titans Redux? Lots of tricky LOS, huge OBs, thick armor,...

 

I see Mr. Herm has a video of my scenario on Youtube.  Massive blasting...LOL  Initially Clash of Titans Redux was a German Counter Assault, Let the Russians come in and slap them up while you await for your reinforcements to detrain and move to position...etc.  It is a slugfest for the German player for sure, but it has many features for players, rolling hills, ravines, heavy and light woods, close combat if it gets that far and the use of many vehicles from both sides, although I am in the stages of doing a Kursk like battle of now with certain vehicles.  Let me know if you two slug it out, would like to get your impressions.  I also have an Italian scenario you both might be interested in as well.

 

Cheers,

James

[BornGinger]

On 11/4/2023 at 12:24 AM, Vacillator said:

A quick thought is that their LOS may not be the same as your LOS.  For example you might have a buttoned up Stug with poor observation (not to mention soft factors), they might have an opened up IS2 with better observation.

There is also the unfortunate possibility that the enemy is 1km away on the other side of a very dense and large forest and behind that forest it's also on the other side of a village but still able to both see the tank belonging to @bruno2016 and shoot at it.

The typical combat mission line of sight and line of fire.

Edited December 14, 2023 by BornGinger

[OBJ]

Re planning movement based on LOS along the planned path, I hadn't done this previously, but wish I had. Tedious but resulted for me in a much better appreciation of a) what approach had the most cover, b) where along my planned avenue of approach I was visible to various potential enemy positions. I did same as image for multiple units, I just don't know how to show the direct fire lines for all units at once.

This allowed me to plan smoke to get across what otherwise was a wide open kill zone. Worked right up until a spoiler event those that have played the scenario undoubtedly are aware of