Question About American Tanks and Heavy Artillery

[CanuckGamer]

We are playing our 3rd PBEM game and noticed that American tanks always seem to fire their machine gun even after they have fired their main gun at a Russian tank.  There have been a number of instances where this has caused the American tank to be knocked out since the Russian tanks don't seem to do this.  I am assuming that firing the machine gun is to determine the range but did they not have electronics for that  back in the 80's?  Regardless, 2 of the 3 American tanks that I have lost is due to their pattern of firing their machine gun after a shot from their main gun.

A generic question, has anyone seen heavy artillery such as 155 mm knock out or immobilize a tank?  We are playing a scenario , Between Farhbarns  where I am the Yanks.  I have 155mm artillery but so far haven't seen any Russian infantry.  In addition there isn't a fixed objective in front of the American line that they have to take so wondering what the artillery can do unless it can knock out a tank.

[Halmbarte]

I figured the M60 commanders were just playing around with their mini-turret. Gotta be doing something after all. 

I haven't seen 155/152mm knock out a tank that I remember, but I have seen them immobilized and with severe systems damage. I have seen 155/152mm & 120mm kill passengers and even knock out APCs. 

H

[Brille]

I don't think that the usage of the roof MG gave away your tank. I believe that the big Flash and smoke of your firing Main gun gave your tank away.

 

No serious: while firing a weapon in general makes someone notice your presence I guess it is rather a minor problem to the mg especially when something bigger was fired beforehand. 

 

Soviet tanks in this era rarely use this because they often have no remote controlled MG on the roof and the crew are often closed up so operating from the outside is out of the question too....most of the time though. 

 

I don't know if it is common military practice to fire heavy MG at tanks too but fact is that the tac ai in combat mission do exactly that if possible, regardless of the faction. 

 

And it surely can do some damage. Every subsystem on the outside can take damage if it got hit. This includes optics, smoke dischargers, roof mounted MG and anything else that is not armor protected. 

To the heavy artillery: (Very) Close hits have a chance to immobilize or destroy a tank, though the latter is more common to apc and ifv. If it hit directly on a tank, any other subsystem can be damaged or destroyed too, including the whole tank. But I would not call it a viable anti tank option if you ask me, at least not in that timeframe and without precision ammunition. 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Brille

[Grey_Fox]

Firing an MG at a tank can cause subsystem damage, damage optics, perhaps incapacitate any crew may be turned out.

I have seen tanks knocked out by direct hits from artillery if they hit in the right place, I have also seen them immobilized by near-misses. I have also seen turned-out crew killed by nearby artillery and mortar blasts. But it requires concentration and luck, and isn't a guaranteed outcome.

Some argue that there should be more subsystem damage from nearby shells landing or airbursting.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Grey_Fox

[Centurian52]

I haven't seen non-cluster artillery take out a tank in Cold War, but I put that down to me not having played enough of it yet (working my way through the WW2 titles before getting on to CMCW, though I've played a bit out of sheer excitement and curiosity for the time period). I have seen artillery take out tanks in WW2, although it's rare. If it can take out a tank in WW2 then it can take out a tank in the Cold War. A 155mm shell is absolutely capable of taking out any Soviet/Russian tank if it gets a direct hit. I sometimes use artillery as a last ditch anti-tank option, if I'm out of better options. It works much better in the modern titles, since artillery is so much more accurate today than it was in WW2. Even in the modern titles it isn't ideal, since it takes several minutes to call in and I need the tank to obligingly sit there and wait for the arty barrage to arrive. In WW2 it's even worse, since it takes even longer to call in and is far less accurate. But I have tried it out of desperation from time to time and have gotten lucky a few times. I haven't called in enough point target barrages in CMCW to get a feel for how accurate Cold War artillery is compared to WW2 or modern artillery, though the call-in times seem to be closer to modern artillery. Overall I'd say it's not worth doing if you have better options (unless it's one of the modern titles and you have access to precision artillery), and it's never worth trying to hit a moving tank with artillery.

Cluster artillery is a completely different story of course. If you have access to cluster artillery then it is absolutely worthwhile to lay down an arty screen in front of an enemy armored advance. There is a good chance that you will take out a few of the advancing enemy vehicles that way. Cluster artillery isn't magic, and most tanks will probably get through as long as they are spread out and keep moving. But it is orders of magnitude more effective than conventional artillery against armored formations.

[chuckdyke]

I took out a Stug III it was near the end of a scenario and had a final mission on a good sound contact.

[Simcoe]

I'll have to find some screenshots but I finished a Cold War PBEM a while back as the US and I destroyed or tracked at least 8 Tanks/IFV's. Just make sure you have it on point target and keep your eyes and ears everywhere. All you need is one guy with a radio and good vantage point to do some serious damage.

[Pelican Pal]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:47 PM, CanuckGamer said:

A generic question, has anyone seen heavy artillery such as 155 mm knock out or immobilize a tank? 

Near misses can immobillize a tank but that is pretty rare. What you will likely see is track damage so the tank is just permanently slower for the rest of the match. Artillery fragments aren't modeled against any other tank systems though so to reduce a tanks effectiveness outside of movement speed you need a direct hit.
 

[Sublime]

On 4/17/2023 at 8:47 PM, CanuckGamer said:

We are playing our 3rd PBEM game and noticed that American tanks always seem to fire their machine gun even after they have fired their main gun at a Russian tank.  There have been a number of instances where this has caused the American tank to be knocked out since the Russian tanks don't seem to do this.  I am assuming that firing the machine gun is to determine the range but did they not have electronics for that  back in the 80's?  Regardless, 2 of the 3 American tanks that I have lost is due to their pattern of firing their machine gun after a shot from their main gun.

A generic question, has anyone seen heavy artillery such as 155 mm knock out or immobilize a tank?  We are playing a scenario , Between Farhbarns  where I am the Yanks.  I have 155mm artillery but so far haven't seen any Russian infantry.  In addition there isn't a fixed objective in front of the American line that they have to take so wondering what the artillery can do unless it can knock out a tank.

not CW but I have seen 155 kill tanks with direct hits in BS. (actually also in some ww2 titles both engines old and new) Same engine, no guided rounds, so its possible; its just gonna be very rare since we do not have krasnopol and exacalibur in game

DPICM ive seen pen vehicle tops but not kill.

Arty even if it wont knock  out the tank will help u as americans because dragon teams can fire thru smoke dust and **** with thermals. any ifvs or tanks u got with thermals too - pop smoke and u can shoot them they cant do anything except try to move and get an angle. they always die.

Artillery also can and will degrade tank optics, outside kit, and can immobilize them easily.  81mm mortars are iffy on this but ya u talking 155 its worth it if u got not much else  I mean why not.  if it DOES hit a tank itll kill it 100% or stop it dead and fck it up bad

IDK why US tanks esp the m60s do it, all i can think of is its bc its 50 cal and the tac ai thinks its 'worth it' to try. its NOT ballistics.  IRL these tanks DID have the optics and the m60 tts had thermals and could laze, m60a1 used a coincidence range finder.. I dont think the baliistics match.  The ballisitics DO match on the BMP1s 73mm and its coax and IRL gunnrs were taught to 'squirt' targets with coax before firing the cannon.

Question - how do you figure the mg fire is killiing ur US tanks? Im assuming you mean m60s because mine do it all the time.  however their using a 105mm cannon first (lol) and trust me thats gonna get attention regardless.  How is the mg fire causing the tank to die? the loader isnt doing it, the gunners gonna keep using the main gun, its the commander..? 

Finally Ill add that IRL accounts, in a situation like this everyone is $hitting their pants and thatd be a likely reason for the commander inside a covered cupola to decide to spray .50 cal at the enemy tank

Edited April 25, 2023 by Sublime

[Butschi]

If the tank is unbuttoned, you can have an artillery shell go right through the open hatch. That is pretty sure to kill the tank. Saw it once or twice but of course it is really rare.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Butschi

[Sublime]

Just now, Butschi said:

If the tank is unbuttoned, you can have an artillery shell go right through the hatch. That is pretty sure to kill the tank. Saw it once or twice but of course it is really rare.

yeah and even unbuttoned its a 155 round.  this is also why atgms like javelin are so lethal, why TOW went top attack, etc. armor is thinnest there. As long as its not on airburst its gonna punch right in it.

Ive seen it light BMPs the fck up with full loads of infantry in SF

[Centurian52]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Finally Ill add that IRL accounts, in a situation like this everyone is $hitting their pants and thatd be a likely reason for the commander inside a covered cupola to decide to spray .50 cal at the enemy tank

It's definitely not completely irrational. It may be a long shot. But any chance that a stray 0.50 cal round might hit an optic or damage something important might just give you the edge you need. Especially if you are in panic mode.

[Sublime]

14 hours ago, Centurian52 said:

It's definitely not completely irrational. It may be a long shot. But any chance that a stray 0.50 cal round might hit an optic or damage something important might just give you the edge you need. Especially if you are in panic mode.

Oh I didnt say it was irrational at all and actually to back up both our opinions theres a YT channel last night, some teenage kid whose prolly a genius combs through archival stuff on bombers in ww2.  anyways he did some viewer requests and the US army did weekly combat reports with tips and anecdotes from all over the world to help soldiers out.  It was stressed in this short (ten min episode) that one finding was part of the reason the Germans didnt push as hard as they 'could have' at Bastogne was because the heavy use of tracers and large amounts of .50 cals with tracers being used.  Which is believable, remember those old pics of them zeroing the guns on fighters on the ground where it looks like its shooting lasers basically?

Anyway, I can provide a link, and I never said it was irrational, IRL a tanker seeing literally hundreds of muzzle flashes, even if they cant pen the tank will not think like an AI and sit there and calmly engage. Sure crack crews may, but a regular crews reaction I imagine would be 'holy **** thats like a battalion! reverse!!!'

And on the other side of the lines, I imagine itd be difficult to be getting shot and seeing your friends get killed and have a weapon and not fire it at the enemy, even if its hopeless to have an effect.  IRL btw this has been proven to be the case time and again unless we are talking about at the least veteran troops or very specific situations.

 

* The bomber channel discussion thing came about I just recalled because the kid had an episode where he discussed 8th AF's decision at some point to STOP using tracer rounds.... Ill gladly provide links if youd like and he provides the source material which is USAAF reports from the time you can even d/l in .pdf

actually just here

 

[Centurian52]

25 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Oh I didnt say it was irrational at all

Looking back I can see why it looks like I was saying that. The intended function of my opening sentence was actually to agree with you, not to contradict you. Its intended meaning would have been retained if it were replaced with the sentence "Yeah, that makes sense".

[Sublime]

40 minutes ago, Centurian52 said:

Looking back I can see why it looks like I was saying that. The intended function of my opening sentence was actually to agree with you, not to contradict you. Its intended meaning would have been retained if it were replaced with the sentence "Yeah, that makes sense".

regardless I think the discussion benefited from our discourse. And I agree with you as well =D

Edited April 26, 2023 by Sublime

[Lee Enfield]

On 4/18/2023 at 1:47 AM, CanuckGamer said:

A generic question, has anyone seen heavy artillery such as 155 mm knock out or immobilize a tank?

I had a 4.2in mortar round penetrate the top armour of a T-62 and kill it the other day, so it's definitely possible in game terms:

Edited April 26, 2023 by Lee Enfield

[Sublime]

23 minutes ago, Lee Enfield said:

I had a 4.2in mortar round penetrate the top armour of a T-62 and kill it the other day, so it's definitely possible in game terms:

noiiiice

[Pelican Pal]

On 4/25/2023 at 4:00 PM, Sublime said:

**** with thermals

I've tried it a few times and I'm not sure dust blocks thermals but in most U.S. tanks only the gunner has a thermal in this time period (IIRC) so it will lower the tanks overall spotting capability.

As far as mortars I use them pretty extensively against armor since they are fairly accurate and a direct hit can M kill M60s of various types. But you need to watch where the shell lands a bit more than with larger artillery. A shell to the engine is just going to kill the engine, a shell to the cupola is just going to frag the TC, and so on.

[Sublime]

On 4/26/2023 at 6:30 PM, Pelican Pal said:

I've tried it a few times and I'm not sure dust blocks thermals but in most U.S. tanks only the gunner has a thermal in this time period (IIRC) so it will lower the tanks overall spotting capability.
 

Dust and smoke dont block thermals but if theyre fully degraded than I cant recall but doesnt that mean they no longer work as well?

for example I have a enemy t64 in pbem thats tanked 3-4 tow shots, 10 or more tows have been stopped by iron tree aps, but has also easily tanked 10+ 105mm APFSDS shots to the turret and mantlet.    I think it got immobilized long ago but it wont even respond to my m60 fire so I think perhaps its been hit so often the subsystems are all broken and the tank doesnt work?

Oddly enoough Im not sure if thats a thing in CM, I know tanks can get m killed but

[Pelican Pal]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:56 PM, Sublime said:

Dust and smoke dont block thermals but if theyre fully degraded than I cant recall but doesnt that mean they no longer work as well?

IIRC the big X means that the subsystem is non-functional and that can happen to any subsystem. But before that happens there is a degradation period where it works less well. The most obvious one is tracks where like yellow tracks and the vehicle will be moving noticeably slower.

[Sublime]

14 hours ago, Pelican Pal said:

IIRC the big X means that the subsystem is non-functional and that can happen to any subsystem. But before that happens there is a degradation period where it works less well. The most obvious one is tracks where like yellow tracks and the vehicle will be moving noticeably slower.

thanks ur right.  Its been a few years since Ive played

[Chibot Mk IX]

Not from CMCW, but here is a prefect example of mission kills in CM

First a penetration on upper hull kills the driver, 

then a penetration on the front turret kills the commander , disable the main gun and the coax MG

last, the tracks are trashed by hand grenade. A team of Germany infantry sneak out of the woods, assault the M4/76 with hand grenade. 

 

Fortunately the crew made the right decision. they keep the hatch closed and stay inside. Germany infantry team run out of grenade and retreat back to woods before the reinforcement arrives.  But the tank is totally f**ked. I am considering bail out the crew, let them pickup the PPSh from the fallen comrade and join the infantry formation. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

And, some clips from CMRT. 120mm mortar kills T-34/85 and Panther tank

 

120mm mortar destroys T-34/85

 

 

 

120mm mortar strike hit Panther's ammo rack