Lanzfeld Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Hi Guys..... First off I have to say that I have been waiting for this game all my life! That may sound lame to some of you but I am sure that there are some of you out there that are like me and just cant keep a thought in your head because you are so excited about the final product! I am already worried about my girlfriends reaction to me spending every waking moment with this game. Big Time Software....you are the GREATEST! <love you man...> <sniff> Anyway.....I notice that in replay..all the teams seem to fire in cycles. That is...the MG's will fire a burst...wait a few seconds...and fire another burst... ect....Makes sense to me. But is there ever a time where they just go sick and hold the trigger down? Like if they are being overrun. I know that Brownings Model 1911 Machine-gun was fired for 48 minutes and 12 seconds straight in a demo to the Army. And...<Just as an example to this question!!!> on the D-Day battle in Pvt. Ryan the Germans unloaded some lead into those transports. Just a question. Everybody....keep up the great work and the interesting questions! I'm returning CC4 and making room for CM. Lanzfeld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Well, in close combat units don't fire continuously but they do fire much more often, say 7 or 8 bursts per minute instead of 1 or 2.. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Very rarely would any trained MG team "go sick" with their gun. Superhigh volumes of fire in a short period of time will kill the barrel. How many holes do you need to drill into one person? With the rate of fire from an MG42 for example, you'd have to slew the barrel like a MadMatt, er madman , so you didn't waste ammo drilling some poor guy who might already have 3 holes in him. Two holes is probably enough. You don't have to saw a guy in half. Add to this the fact that you have to change out barrels periodically, and you find that well-trained teams go for effective fire, not volume fire, even with weapons like the MG42 where a barrel change out was an amazing few seconds for a trained team. With regard to D-Day and the volume of fire received by the incoming troops, check out some references on the defensive setup. Yes, the volume of fire was high, but there were a large number of machine gun nests with interlocking fields of fire for maximum effect. If I'm motivated, I'll check books this evening for info and post it here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Just like fighter engagements during WWII. Nobody held down the trigger. 300 Rounds of MG fire could be used in 14 seconds. They, like the MG's on land were taught to fire in bursts to conserve ammo. Plus, there were only a few rare occurences where a single Machine Gunner had the same number of targets as D-Day right infront of their gun. Plus, ammo in CM runs out fast enough, I wouldn't want it to go even faster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Hi Lanzfeld! Thanks for the praise Exactly like the others have said Having fired an MG42 I can tell you that even with short bursts the ammo goes bye-bye all too quickly (especially when you are paying for it!). Also keep in mind that generally there were no more than 250 rounds belted up at one time, often less. For a MG42 that is pretty much 10 - 15 seconds to burn through the whole thing. I think there are some extreme cases where the gunner would be willing to go all out. Shooting from a bunker at waves of charging infantry is about the only one I can think of. But still... the gunner is going to have brief pauses due to the need to adjust for accuracy. Even in the HMG role on the tripod (the way I shot the MG42) this is necessary. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Units of any type can go nuts firing at close range. An American squad of mine used up five units of ammo at once firing at a German squad at 19 meters. The ammo counter went from 17 then immediately to 12. So at close range guys will blaze away. Keep this in mind when mounting a clse assault. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 BTS, I have to ask - Where can you get to fire a belt-fed Machine Gun??? I thought I was in heaven in Panama City FL, when a couple of friends and I rented Uzi's and a couple clips of ammo a piece. Best $$$ I spent on that Spring Break. The cash went quickly, but at least shooting that afternoon didn't make me want to throw up the next morning when I looked next to me at what I slept with that night CrapGame out... (and in the doghouse again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 There are a couple of events each year in different parts of the country. Guys come up with their "toys" so they can mingle, buy/trade, get parts, and of course shoot. Many folks have a hard time shooting what they own because of legal restrictions. At these shoots very often these individuals are willing to let you shoot for the cost of the ammo or slightly more. You never know what will be there. The largest in the country is Knob Creek. It is somewhere in the East. Dang, I should know this off the top of my head... I think it is in Kentucky? But there are smaller ones here and there and I have also heard of small business, like the Uzi guys you went to, that are pay for shoot type deals. I think there are a couple of places in Georgia that have vintage WWII stuff. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 "I thought I was in heaven in Panama City FL, when a couple of friends and I rented Uzi's and a couple clips of ammo a piece. Best $$$ I spent on that Spring Break. " All the non americans look at the thread and shake thier heads Just messin with ya guys but bear in mind how odd your conversation looks for the rest of us. _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TOBRUK Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 And some Americans, Dumbo Where are you? Why don't you post your 'location' in your profile. It would be interesting to know. [This message has been edited by TOBRUK (edited 01-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have to ask - Where can you get to fire a belt-fed Machine Gun???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There are a couple of organizations here in the states... and many more around the world, that you can join and be able to fire all kinds of cool weapons for free. My personal recommendation would by the USMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Um, there's certain drawbacks to those particular organizations, like the possibility of getting yourself killed. Even worse, IMO, is the possibility that you'll not only get to fire those weapons, but that you'll be forced to fire those weapons AT somebody. -John Hough, your friendly neighborhood wargaming pacifist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Some of the comments here prompt me to restate the obvious: remember that MGs (especially for an advancing force) are used primarily to keep the defenders/targets' heads down so other elements (like riflemen) can abuse them at more intimate ranges. If you can actually kill or incapacitate some targets then fine and dandy, no one is going to complain, but most guys are gonna duck and crawl (if they move at all) when under sustained MG fire. CM allows me to do something that not all games do: pin a squad and then drop mortar shells on them. Did that to some guys this weekend in a WWII Miniatures games and it was very much fun. -dale (never fired anything full-auto) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Fionn said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Well, in close combat units don't fire continuously but they do fire much more often, say 7 or 8 bursts per minute instead of 1 or 2..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Aye, the Achilles Heel of SMG squads They are like-- er, ... living panzerfausts--use once and throw away . -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Automatic fire eh? Can't go wrong with paintball then!! ------------------ Visit my Combat Mission for Mac page! Soon to have some exclusive screenshots courtesy of Madmatt! cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 There is a gun store in Las Vegas, very near the airport on Tropicana, which allows rental fire of full-auto toys (note to rest of world: this means you can shoot THEIR guns on THEIR range using YOUR ammo. You may not rent a machine-gun and leave the premises, or rob a bank, and return it). Last visit they had an MP40, Thompson, Sten, HK MP5, and something else I forget now (maybe a grease gun or an Uzi). Sorry, nothing belt-fed. Shooting these things is expensive- the rental is reasonable (about $30 USD), but the ammo goes quick. To me there were only 2 choices in that list and they were both Deutsches Erzeugnis. This arrangement is legal, safe, and fun. Even the novice will quickly learn why short bursts are the norm for shoulder-fired weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Bullethead, Well personally speaking I think a Regular or Vet SMG platoon is quite capable of taking out a US Rifle company (including heavy weapons) with its ammo loadout. I brutally abused a PBEM opponent in Riesberg with an SMG platoon to his flank. I wiped out two entire platoons for only 2 casualties and was just getting to work on some scattered heavy weapons and another platoon while still having half my ammo left when he called a ceasefire. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eridani Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Just gotta chime in on that Paintball comment... You all wanna shoot, why not shoot something that you fire AT someone (without all of the nasty legal reprecussions)... I actually use a lot of paintball mentality when I play this game, especially LOS/ambushes when using infantry... I find the bast way to use a platoon is think "what would I do if I was them", which is extremely easy for me because I find myself in similar positions once a month... I do pray the paintball is the closest I ever find myself to the real battlefield... Anyone else here play? -EridanMan ------------------ Your Source for Combat Mission Scenarios and Operations information- <A HREF = "http://patriot.net/~carey/cmso/"> CMSO </a> patriot.net/~carey/cmso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 I try to play paintball as often as possible. Unfortunatly, work has been interfering in that endeavor, but I love the thrill I get playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Take a guess Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Fionn said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Well personally speaking I think a Regular or Vet SMG platoon is quite capable of taking out a US Rifle company (including heavy weapons) with its ammo loadout.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh certainly. In fact, you'll note I gave a report of just such an occurrance in that "Busy Valkyries" thread that quickly degenerated into arguments about music, of all things What I meant was, you'd like to be able to go on and do that to the rest of the US force But the SMG union squad stewards inform me that destroying 1 company per battle is all they're required to do under their enlistment contracts -Bullethead [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 01-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Aye it's the damned unions. Whenever I try to negotiate for my SMG squads to port more ammo around all I hear from the unions are equivalancy arguments about artillerymen and how if THEY get Lorraine Schleppers to carry all that ammo around that my SMG squads want organic Lorraine Schleppers too.. That and a 5 day working week with holiday benefits and comprehensive health benefits.. It's no way to fight a war I tell you. Next they'll be having me fill out insurance forms for the Amis for every Sherman I brew up ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Better than the French, where the labor unions are leading a legitimate 4-day-week movement. Given the record of the French gov't standing up to the unions, I'm seeing a significant upswing in leisure time for French people sometime soon. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Ahh, several points to make. dumbo, why does this conversation sound odd? I am a CPA who happens to be a history buff. I am not a gun-toting crazyman. If I was, I'd work for the post office. I do not own a gun (other than a couple of paintball markers), and I do not intend on buying one. However, my Panama City experience (similar to the one Mark IV describes in Vegas) makes the experience of games such as CM all the more realistic when you have heard some of the sounds and smelled some of the smells first-hand. That is why I would like to experience the MG42. Berli - Thanks for the tip, but no thanks. Like John H, I would prefer not having to try to kill people nor having people try to kill me. The worst things in my field are being taken off a job or having my boss make me threaten a client with a "Management Comment" - sounds scary, doesn't it? CrapGame out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Fionn said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Whenever I try to negotiate for my SMG squads to port more ammo around all I hear from the unions are equivalancy arguments about artillerymen and how if THEY get Lorraine Schleppers to carry all that ammo around that my SMG squads want organic Lorraine Schleppers too..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Heheh, this is great Hey, we should save this sort of stuff in a joke FAQ. You know, kinda like Mad's "Snappy Answer..." feature. And con somebody to post it on his site -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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