Tips for playing.

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Don't send scouts where you have not been with area fire.

That's good advice if you have a smallish map and lots of ammo.  But, on the huge maps it's not practical.  On huge maps you have to send guys in harm's way to see what it out there.

[chuckdyke]

Harras often does the trick on a pointed target. I will make a post on MGs with this in mind.

[RockinHarry]

18 hours ago, Erwin said:

The important concept is that the scout vehicle is not supposed to be the spotter.  It's purpose is to draw fire... and survive.

Also:  When on a road, we may be talking 75-150 meter FAST scouting moves followed by an immediate REVERSE to a safe location.

The purpose is to be able to scout quickly long expanses of road.  Normally I would send multiple 2-man inf scouts.  But, on some of the large/huge maps, that is just way too slow and take way too much time.  (Only a few designers allow sufficient time for "careful" scouting.)

1)  If one sends an unbuttoned vehicle to scout into possibly hostile territory the chances are xnt that a crew member will be shot.  The spotter(s) are the inf and crews in the vehicle(s) who are sitting back watching what happens to the scout vehicle.  

2)  Am assuming that one starts in a safe location.  So when the scout reverses back to that location, the unit should be safe.  Once one has scouted ahead to a new location without any enemy contact, that next location becomes the new "safe" location and everyone can move to that location.  Then the scout vehicle moves FAST ahead to the next possible danger location and reverses back to the new safe location. 

3)  It's harder to hit a moving vehicle even in reverse.  If the scout was unbuttoned inf small arms fire could probably kill a crew-member.  That's why the scout should be buttoned.  However, it takes time for the enemy Tactical AI to aim and fire a large weapon capable of hurting the vehicle.  

I have spend over a decade trying to figure out how to scout distance quickly with vehicles (in CM2) while giving the scouting unit the best chance to survive.  The above tactic has worked best for scouting down a long road.  If off-road, one usually can move a scout vehicle FAST from one covered location to another. 

However, as mentioned, if time allows I always prefer to send many 2-man scouts ahead to quickly locate enemy assets and positions.  However, I still find it very hard to keep them alive.  Once an inf unit has gotten close enuff to be fired on by an enemy, the inf scout cannot move away to safety quickly enough.

Hope the above helps...

BTW:  It's great to have threads on CM2 tactics again.  We used to have many of these "hint" threads in the early CM1 and CM2 days.  But in recent years discussions seem to have become dominated by discussions on the various weapons systems simulated.

another scouting (with vehicles) tactic I´m using is fast move between observation points, preferably from then hull down position. If possible furtherly refining to turret down so that just the commander peeks over the crest. For more "secrecy" one can also fast move from point to point in full cover, then disembark. The crew then does the recon similar to infantry at very short distance. It´s not without risks, but if you just want to observe, not draw fire, it´s very effective. Another RL tactics as taught for german WW2 motor recon troops (and tank units in same role).

[chuckdyke]

Move inside the vehicle. Driver is behind the crest.

Scroll up with the mouse wheel (1 notch). We have POV of the Machine Gunner. Remember View-1 is driver View-1+Notch is gunner. Easy to plot Hull Down using the Hull-Down Move. View-1 Blocked vision View-1+Notch is Gunner.

[chuckdyke]

It is a good way of testing how secure a Hull-Down position is. I give this vehicle three turns at the most then they go tip toe through the tulips in the sky. Better hide the vehicle and dismount to observe. 

[JM Stuff]

18 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

It is a good way of testing how secure a Hull-Down position is. I give this vehicle three turns at the most then they go tip toe through the tulips in the sky. Better hide the vehicle and dismount to observe. 

I repeat me but definitively useful, we can thing CM is now a FPS game (or are you playing it really in FPS mode view), like the giving options menu (RTS FPS or Standard ) ?

You have to open a blog to present all your tips and tricks, like Bill, very useful and interresting.

Cheers

Edited February 23, 2023 by JM Stuff

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, JM Stuff said:

FPS mode

I scout from View-1.  Micromanagement requires a micro map aka view-1. I explained how to do it quickly on page 1.

Edited February 23, 2023 by chuckdyke

[JM Stuff]

Never playing in FPS mode but this seem to be interresting.

I think you were explaining a way to save a wiew with cameras, I guess in FPS mode, somewhere in a thread, but I cannot find it, when you have time, can you eventual poiinted a link about ?

I would like to test myself the FPS.

Thanks in advance  

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

another scouting (with vehicles) tactic I´m using is fast move between observation points, preferably from then hull down position. If possible furtherly refining to turret down so that just the commander peeks over the crest. For more "secrecy" one can also fast move from point to point in full cover, then disembark.

For open country that is the best tactic, agreed.  My suggested tactic above was for scouting down a long road on a huge map and one wants to locate enemy ambush positions quickly and relatively safely.  The tactic works best vs WW2 Russian who have few if any personal AT weapons.  They have little to hurt a buttoned up AFV. 

The danger is that the AFV will come into the LOS of an enemy ATG or ATGM.  But, my experience is that ATG's and even ATGM's take sufficient time to spot and aim, that a scout AFV moving in reverse can usually get out of their LOS and the enemy asset will miss, but still expose itself to other units (usually inf with binocs) that are doing the actual spotting.

I emphasize that this is all for optimizing one's play in the CM2 game rather than RL. 

[RockinHarry]

23 minutes ago, Erwin said:

For open country that is the best tactic, agreed.  My suggested tactic above was for scouting down a long road on a huge map and one wants to locate enemy ambush positions quickly and relatively safely.  The tactic works best vs WW2 Russian who have few if any personal AT weapons.  They have little to hurt a buttoned up AFV. 

The danger is that the AFV will come into the LOS of an enemy ATG or ATGM.  But, my experience is that ATG's and even ATGM's take sufficient time to spot and aim, that a scout AFV moving in reverse can usually get out of their LOS and the enemy asset will miss, but still expose itself to other units (usually inf with binocs) that are doing the actual spotting.

I emphasize that this is all for optimizing one's play in the CM2 game rather than RL. 

yep. Very much depends on map size, available cover, communication networks and recon target. Normally scout/armored cars were used in pairs, so that there´s always one who can overwatch the lead vehicle. In case the lead vehicle gets f*cked up, there´s one left who can radio back what happened, where and when. Beside helping any surviving crew members. Of course not of much concern in CM god´s eye mode.

Edited February 23, 2023 by RockinHarry

[Bulletpoint]

Scouting in this game is less about sitting still and hoping to spot something, and more about sending an expendable unit forward and having it draw fire.

In real life, if you send two scouts running through the field or a forest, they can easily get shot without their friends seeing who shot them or even realising they got killed until they fail to return much later.

But thanks to the all-seeing floating camera, we can usually see and follow the tracers (and replay the turn and listen for gunshots) to find the exact enemy position. This makes "throwaway scouting" very powerful.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Bulletpoint

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Scouting in this game is less about sitting still and hoping to spot something, and more about sending an expendable unit forward and having it draw fire.

Unfortunately in the game, yes.  A few of our best designers do allow a lot more time for careful scouting.  But, usually the lack of time necessitates brutal Zhukov-style measures.  

[chuckdyke]

I found 'Hunt Mode' one of the worse things you can do with a two men scout team. Just the game it takes seven seconds for the AI to react. So fast is the way to go to draw fire. Before you do it have all of his platoon observing. A German training film was actually using this method. The only difference the Feldwebel was doing the running. His words: "Heinz while I run you watch the treeline there." 

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Unfortunately in the game, yes.  A few of our best designers do allow a lot more time for careful scouting.  But, usually the lack of time necessitates brutal Zhukov-style measures.  

Even if you had all the time in the world, there are some things the game won't let you spot. I set up a test where I put an AT gun in a forest tile and had a Sherman advance towards it, trying to find how long it would take to spot at various ranges.

To my surprise, there was a hard limit at around 500m where I could park the Sherman at say 510m and have it sit there for 15 minutes without spotting anything, but the moment I moved it just one or two squares forward, it would spot the AT gun within seconds.

I still don't know exactly how the spotting works, but it seems to me that in some cases, it's more binary than I previously thought. My impression is that this is how it works in clear weather and perfect visibility, whereas in low light and fog etc there will be a bigger zone of not instant spotting or not but some kind of pct. chance per second.

[chuckdyke]

I think spotting is also a matter of combined arms. Scouts need to walk up to the building to spot hidden units inside in WW2 scenarios. Elite or Crack in modern warfare often get sound contact. I suspect the AI reacted on my unit movements. I didn't test the modern scenarios. In WW2 tanks in RT&FR improve spotting by 30% when they have tank riders. The logic escapes me two men in -20C will spot and pass it on to the TC. The Germans did it too and called them cannon fodder it definitely attracted enemy fire.

[chuckdyke]

Recon vs Recon Blue forces likely to be ineffective.

 

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

To my surprise, there was a hard limit at around 500m where I could park the Sherman at say 510m and have it sit there for 15 minutes without spotting anything, but the moment I moved it just one or two squares forward, it would spot the AT gun within seconds.

So spotting distances are probably fixed rather than graduated ie: fixed % spotting at x meters, x to y meters, y to z meters.

Re HUNT orders, have learned to use them sparingly and always in conjunction with a HIDE command.  So, mostly QUICK for 10-25 meters with 5 second pauses so unit doesn't tire too quickly. 

When getting close to possible enemy, start mixing QUICK with short HUNT waypoints with HIDE command.  The closer to possible danger, the fewer QUICK moves, and more short HUNT commands with longer HIDE pauses (10-20 seconds).

As pointed out earlier, it's not the lead scout team(s) who is expected to spot, it's the "observer" scout team(s) that are in safer overwatch positions that watch what happens to the lead scouts.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Erwin

[chuckdyke]

6 hours ago, Erwin said:

So, mostly QUICK for 10-25 meters with 5 second pauses so unit doesn't tire too quickly. 

Tired means you can't go Fast, quick when tired last longer/ You only lose quick when you are fatigued. 

[chuckdyke]

@JM Stuff I suppose with FPS you mean First Person Shooter. View-1 presents the player more like a Third Person Shooter. To get POV of a First Person Shooter you need to work with the 'W-Key' which is useful to see what you get.

You need to select the move tool unfortunately the screenshot didn't capture it. Select a move and place as much as possible at the centre bottom. This is where you unit ends the move order.

It may deviate a little depending the location of the square. On page 1 of this thread I explained how to place move orders from this position.

[chuckdyke]

Experimenting to get rid of the God's Eye View of the game. View 5-9 Permitted after all road maps and topographic maps is part of HQ units. View2-4 permitted if it approximately coincides with terrain features. First selecting units using View 1.

When you check the Formation Panel either one or three flags you see the subunits. By clicking any one of them you move instantly to that unit. By clicking the C2 Panel on the left either one of the Green Radio Buttons or the C2 communication means you return to one of the HQ Units. Playing this way is possible, sub units out of C2 you can't use View 5-9 as they don't have maps which is debatable I know. Modern games have PDAs.

Edited February 24, 2023 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

For the sub units out of C2 you use Alt+Z to return to your HQ unit. 

[Bulletpoint]

8 hours ago, Erwin said:

Re HUNT orders, have learned to use them sparingly and always in conjunction with a HIDE command.  So, mostly QUICK for 10-25 meters with 5 second pauses so unit doesn't tire too quickly. 

There's no real reason to prevent them from becoming exhausted. You could also just run them along a path without pauses, and then let them catch their breath at the end of it (if they survive). Pausing for 10x5 seconds along the way or 1x50 seconds at the end gives the same result. But they scout the path much quicker by just letting them run.

8 hours ago, Erwin said:

As pointed out earlier, it's not the lead scout team(s) who is expected to spot, it's the "observer" scout team(s) that are in safer overwatch positions that watch what happens to the lead scouts.

This is also a good technique, but if you have an observer overlooking the area, it's more effective to simply keep the scouts close to the observer and doing recon by fire. No real reason to send the scout team forward.

I find the cases where it makes the most sense to send scouts is to run along a forest path for example and see if there is any danger along the way. You're trading two scouts for a LOT of intel about where you can safely go and where you can't.

Because you as the player will know exactly the spot where the scouts disappeared, whereas in reality, you might just hear two shots in the far distance and know that somewhere in that forest there are enemies, but you still have to slowly advance to find them.

[chuckdyke]

Hunt is moving to contact and even then, it is bloody dangerous. For this we need Assault Rifles, Sub Machine Guns and Hand Grenades. Bolt Rifles were clearly on the way-out during WW2, poor British CW fought with a WW1 Rifle, but it was a good one. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by chuckdyke

[Erwin]

8 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Tired means you can't go Fast, quick when tired last longer/ You only lose quick when you are fatigued. 

I virtually never order a FAST move.  And I don't like units to become TIRED.  In the game, it's all possible and no issues, (altho it takes a long time for a unit to recover from fatigued or exhausted).  It's just my own "house rule".

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Pausing for 10x5 seconds along the way or 1x50 seconds at the end gives the same result. But they scout the path much quicker by just letting them run.

The PAUSE plus HIDE tends to make enemy AI lose sight and memory of them.  So, when they start up running again IIRC it takes the AI about 7 seconds to notice them again.

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

it's more effective to simply keep the scouts close to the observer and doing recon by fire. No real reason to send the scout team forward.

On small maps that's fine.  On huge maps one may not have the time to be careful (and not enuff ammo). 

In open country, and if one is pressed for time, have found best option is as I described above.  In most scenarios it's a race to discover the enemy ASAP or... one nearly always runs out of time at the end.  Running out of time then leads to rushing at the end and most casualties are often suffered in those last hasty minutes of a scenario. 

My "house standard operating procedure" is to recon as quickly as possible at the start, risk losing 2-man scouts, but then have more time to carefully do assaults without the "end rush".

However, what I was describing earlier was what I have found to be the best tactic for scouting down long roads on huge maps using vehicles giving them the best chance of survival and xnt chance of no losing crew members.  

[JM Stuff]

@chuckdyke Thank you to your explanation but I know already about the C2, I just forgot to tell you it was a view of différents place from a crew that you or somebody's else was giving it in details, the exact position that you have to place the cursor of the mouse to "see" what the driver saw the gunner or the commander, this thread, was perhaps also the hulldown position I don't remember, but I read something about this on the forum, saddly that I don't find it more, also the save tastes of the keyboard that was linked by the differents views.

Up here is already some infos about hulldown and inside the vehicle, but is not the full explanation that I was reading.

I hope all is understanding.
Thanks in advance.

Edited February 24, 2023 by JM Stuff