rocketman Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 Is the position of the TC in the M4A2 too high. Looks very vulnerable, but I'm no grog in the matter... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 Guy is ready to have his head blown off 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted December 10, 2022 Share Posted December 10, 2022 On 12/8/2022 at 11:13 PM, rocketman said: Is the position of the TC in the M4A2 too high. Looks very vulnerable, but I'm no grog in the matter... How does his position compare to other M4 TCs in other games? If they are lower it might be possible to port the model over to RT. Otherwise it's probably a quickish fix in Blender. I recently fixed the position of PzIV G TC for another mod, he was out to about his waist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted December 10, 2022 Author Share Posted December 10, 2022 Is it really possible to port an entire model over or use Blender? Doesn't that just change the visuals and not the underlying 3d model and thus the simulation would render the TC equally vulnerable despite seemingly in a more proper position. Did you do any tests to verify that with the ported models? I checked some other M4s in other games and the TC's position is definitely lower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted December 10, 2022 Share Posted December 10, 2022 24 minutes ago, rocketman said: Is it really possible to port an entire model over or use Blender? Visually it displays different but I did not recall any definite tests of the difference. "Perhaps" the game code just has some small die roll modifier chance percentage anyway no matter what we see or do. A big table of values for all different values that Charles and Steve sat around and defined? Buttoned up = 0. Crew Exposed = .666? <No idea.> It seems more likely that the 3D modeller part of the flow chart "goofs up" and the hardcode value stays the same as all other Shermans they established values for. So I think it is fine to tweak the visuals of "goof ups" towards normal expectations of where he would sit. Right now I am running a sale on tweaking the TC height in the turret...VISA, MC or Diners Club? The Brazilian Cassio Lima 3D studio that BFC hires for this...I think maybe they get young shift workers from the soccer ball factory, they then come over and put in a shift at the 3D studio. Those 8 year-olds can goof up once in a while and enter a z-value wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted December 10, 2022 Share Posted December 10, 2022 26 minutes ago, kohlenklau said: Those 8 year-olds can goof up once in a while Gosh. The commander is not even in the turret for this model. I only know what I "normally" see. It seems the QA is trending poor and a few of these 3D models ship out with errors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted December 10, 2022 Share Posted December 10, 2022 5 hours ago, rocketman said: Is it really possible to port an entire model over or use Blender? Doesn't that just change the visuals and not the underlying 3d model and thus the simulation would render the TC equally vulnerable despite seemingly in a more proper position. Did you do any tests to verify that with the ported models? I checked some other M4s in other games and the TC's position is definitely lower. Yes. Probably. No.* Worth doing just for it looking better.* * See @kohlenklau's fine response and bargain offer for details. 5 hours ago, kohlenklau said: Visually it displays different but I did not recall any definite tests of the difference. "Perhaps" the game code just has some small die roll modifier chance percentage anyway no matter what we see or do. A big table of values for all different values that Charles and Steve sat around and defined? Buttoned up = 0. Crew Exposed = .666? <No idea.> It seems more likely that the 3D modeller part of the flow chart "goofs up" and the hardcode value stays the same as all other Shermans they established values for. Precisely my feelings about this hence no testing done, but @RockinHarry did recently amend position of MG gunner in SdKfz 251 and there is some anecdotal evidence that he is now better protected at least form the front. 5 hours ago, kohlenklau said: The Brazilian Cassio Lima 3D studio that BFC hires for this...I think maybe they get young shift workers from the soccer ball factory, they then come over and put in a shift at the 3D studio. Those 8 year-olds can goof up once in a while and enter a z-value wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted December 11, 2022 Share Posted December 11, 2022 11 hours ago, kohlenklau said: It seems the QA is trending poor and a few of these 3D models ship out with errors. Quite the cheap shot from someone who's never been part of the beta testing process. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey_Fox Posted December 11, 2022 Share Posted December 11, 2022 9 hours ago, LukeFF said: Quite the cheap shot from someone who's never been part of the beta testing process. People are judged by their failures more often than by their successes. End users don't care about the bugs that were found and fixed prior to release, they only care about what they see in front of them. Is any AAR process done to review bugs uncovered by end users in an attempt to identify why they passed through earlier testing rounds? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted December 11, 2022 Share Posted December 11, 2022 I have LukeFF on my ignore list for 10 years or so I think. My comment was aimed at Cassio Lima studios. They get part of my money to make vehicle models as I understand it. Something calling themselves a "studio" should have some better QA I would think. In other posts I have carefully stated how I appreciate the "regular bubbas" beta testers and the difficult job they have. But the bottomline is if issues are spotted by beta testers but somehow do not get corrected. We often hear from beta testers, "yes, we saw that and reported it" -- but somehow it gets back in the game? Sprockets do not turn, guns slew in odd ways, legs stick out, gun blast comes from the wall of the bunker, etc. The bunker gun blast was like that for several titles over ten years until a non-beta forumite looked into it and fixed it. Attack the person reporting the issues or trying to discuss it doesn't help solve the issue. If this forum seems to get hot headed, imagine how the greater steam community might view and comment on a game where sprockets don't turn or the gun blast comes out of a wall? I don't play CM on steam. It is just a game. 2 weeks until Christmas! Best wishes to everybody. ~Phil 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 12 hours ago, Grey_Fox said: People are judged by their failures more often than by their successes. End users don't care about the bugs that were found and fixed prior to release, they only care about what they see in front of them. Is any AAR process done to review bugs uncovered by end users in an attempt to identify why they passed through earlier testing rounds? Sure, I get that, but considering all the vehicles that have been modeled over the years, it looks awful petty to come out and say how quality control has suddenly taken a nosedive, etc., etc. As for you your question, no, I'm not aware of any specific process Battlefront undertakes to see why a bug might have slipped through. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 (edited) As for this gem: Quote I have LukeFF on my ignore list for 10 years or so I think. Someone ask him why I'm on his ignore list. I'm genuinely curious to know. I've gone back to circa 2012-13 to see what I possibly could have posted at that time to tick him off, but I've come up empty. I'd ask him myself in PM, but alas I cannot do that. Talk about petty and holding a grudge for whatever reason... Edited December 12, 2022 by LukeFF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 To gently get this thread back on track - this is what the 3d model looks like if you clip through the texture layer: None of this can be modded so I can't see how modding textures would help other than making it visually pleasing. Wasn't there a general adjustment to TC position in an engine update some time ago? Maybe just one of the older Sherman models dating back to BN or so slip through the cracks and we get this now? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 10 minutes ago, rocketman said: None of this can be modded I am sorry to you for my part in the thread getting off track. I think I CAN mod the tank commander position in Blender. I have done it successfully with other Shermans in CMFI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 14 minutes ago, rocketman said: To gently get this thread back on track - this is what the 3d model looks like if you clip through the texture layer: None of this can be modded so I can't see how modding textures would help other than making it visually pleasing. Wasn't there a general adjustment to TC position in an engine update some time ago? Maybe just one of the older Sherman models dating back to BN or so slip through the cracks and we get this now? 2 minutes ago, kohlenklau said: I am sorry to you for my part in the thread getting off track. I think I CAN mod the tank commander position in Blender. I have done it successfully with other Shermans in CMFI. Harrgh he beat me to it ... Here's some proof of concept images - PzIV G (Late) TC was just begging for it (a head shot that is) we fix it in Blender ... Before ... After ... It's quite a simple fix - BF can have this one for £2.50 ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 8 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said: Harrgh he beat me to it ... Oh goody! LS is on the job. I will bow out and go mind my own business. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 37 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said: Harrgh he beat me to it ... Here's some proof of concept images - PzIV G (Late) TC was just begging for it (a head shot that is) we fix it in Blender ... Before ... After ... It's quite a simple fix - BF can have this one for £2.50 ... I don’t know much about the inner workings of Blender, but you can actually change the entire 3d model? That’s impressive. I just wonder if the underlying simulation follows suit? Maybe I’ll download your mod and set up some tests in the editor to figure it out. And if you can change the 3d models, please add some protection for the poor HT gunners 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 5 hours ago, kohlenklau said: Oh goody! LS is on the job. I will bow out and go mind my own business. Wwwwhhhhhhaaaaaaaattttttt? Man that's sneaky ... 4 hours ago, rocketman said: I don’t know much about the inner workings of Blender, but you can actually change the entire 3d model? That’s impressive. I just wonder if the underlying simulation follows suit? Maybe I’ll download your mod and set up some tests in the editor to figure it out. And if you can change the 3d models, please add some protection for the poor HT gunners Since I've been volunteered ... We can change models using Blender and a special import/export script. We can't change the animations but we can tackle stuff like crew positions, wonky AFV guns, flavor objects, buildings, trees etc. So it's possible to make small tweaks or bigger tweaks or swap bits and pieces around or make new models to 'skin' existing models. We can't change game mechanics. So a tank with six turrets will still only be a tank with one turret in game terms - it'll just look a bit different, but won't function differently. BUT, it MIGHT be the case that some small tweaks DO have an effect on stuff like snipers taking out our TCs and your poor HT MG gunner. HOWEVER nobody has done definitive testing and we have just seen some anecdotal reports of HT MG gunners having slightly better survivability thanks to the tweaks that RockinHarry made ... see this thread: And George MC's reports in his referenced thread: It may just be wishful thinking or it may actually be an improvement - please do make some tests. Now WRT your M4A2 TC - let's see first if there are any other M4A2 models with better positioning of the TC - easier to do a straight swap if there is. Otherwise I will engage on a repair mission in Blender which will hopefully achieve a better looking position at least. TBC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 On 12/8/2022 at 11:13 PM, rocketman said: Is the position of the TC in the M4A2 too high. Looks very vulnerable Is this too low? Or just right? The model for the M4A2 75mm is basically the British & Commonwealth Sherman III with a few tweaks. Interestingly the CMFI model for the Sherman III (and Sheramn IIa) is actually sitting in the CMRT Data repositories in our game folders - must have been left there when the BF minions were porting the model over, it's complete with it's FI camo and all! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 That is dead, solid perfect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted December 13, 2022 Author Share Posted December 13, 2022 11 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said: Is this too low? Or just right? The model for the M4A2 75mm is basically the British & Commonwealth Sherman III with a few tweaks. Interestingly the CMFI model for the Sherman III (and Sheramn IIa) is actually sitting in the CMRT Data repositories in our game folders - must have been left there when the BF minions were porting the model over, it's complete with it's FI camo and all! How can I get hold of your mods for some testing? Searched CMMODS and found some that Kohl had changed but moved the TC up from a too low position. I'll compare your screenshot to in-game when I get time, but it looks just about right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 11 hours ago, rocketman said: How can I get hold of your mods for some testing? Searched CMMODS and found some that Kohl had changed but moved the TC up from a too low position. I'll compare your screenshot to in-game when I get time, but it looks just about right. The Panzer IVG was part of my Berlin Bodenständig Pz IVG mod for RT: Made as a bit of a fun experiment specifically to go with NPye's upcoming Battle for Berlin mod pack and maps: It's available in my thread or from CMMODS IV. I think however what I should do is a set of mods for you to test properly. I'll bundle up models for the M4A2 and the Pz IVG (Late) both with lowered TCs then you can do some sniping tests see if they gain anything. I'll post you a download link. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted December 14, 2022 Author Share Posted December 14, 2022 Cool I’ll do some testing when I find the time. I already did similar testing for HT gunner vulnerability a few years ago. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 (edited) On 12/12/2022 at 10:38 PM, Lucky_Strike said: The model for the M4A2 75mm is basically the British & Commonwealth Sherman III with a few tweaks. Interestingly the CMFI model for the Sherman III (and Sheramn IIa) is actually sitting in the CMRT Data repositories in our game folders - must have been left there when the BF minions were porting the model over, it's complete with it's FI camo and all! Thanks for doing it Mark. I was wondering which of the Shermans it matched to as the A2 just indicated a diesel engine. Tank Commander "looks safer" and we await rocketman's test report to see if any result is obtained beyond cosmetic looks. Edited December 14, 2022 by kohlenklau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted December 15, 2022 Share Posted December 15, 2022 13 hours ago, rocketman said: I already did similar testing for HT gunner vulnerability a few years ago. That would be worthwhile compared to results with RockinHarry's new mod. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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