Forward Observers

[kb6583]

This is related to the weeks long struggles with the battles for Chaumont as the US that I've been playing. So, 1st battle of Chaumont as the US. I've been gradually learning this game but some aspects of it still baffle me. I have a forward observer (FO) team as the US in this scenario with an ability to call in some pretty potent arty and air support. Problem is - how the heck do I employ them???? they have to have LOS to target enemy units - or at least the terrain I think the enemy forces are occupying. Of course, if my FO team has LOS to enemy units, those enemy units have LOS to my FO team. Result: the FO team comes under enemy fire and is no more! HOW do I get the FO team safely employed in order to take advantage of the firepower that it can access?

[Halmbarte]

It's pretty hard to see men wearing drab clothing from any signifiant distance, particularly if they aren't moving or firing. 

You need to get LOS to the target, but that LOS can be to the top of a building or hill. A linear mission can drop rounds on targets that the FO can't actually seem they just need to see the end points of the linear mission. 

I try to get LOS with scouts to where I want my FO to get to. If there is a surprise I want to find out with the scouts and not the FO. When the FO is in position I give them a limited target arc to get them looking in the right direction and so they don't engage targets with their organic weapons. I also try to park FOs in foliage, rocks, shrubs, or in a building so they at least have concealment. 

H

[Erwin]

Also, need to keep the FO at max distance from any enemy while still having LOS.  If your FO is within 500M that is probably too close.  Of course if one is playing a small scenario...

[Warts 'n' all]

Take as long as you like over the Set-up Phase and study the map intently. Plane your route of march, and the best places to locate your heavy support elements and your FO. Take advantage of dead ground when moving the bulk of your forces, and always have some scouts well out front.

[Halmbarte]

Another thing to keep in mind. The kind of place that has great lines of sight for your FO is also likely going to be a great place for ATGM or GMG teams. Those guys will attract fire and get your FOs killed even if the enemy never actually saw the FO team. 

H

[Warts 'n' all]

9 hours ago, Halmbarte said:

Another thing to keep in mind. The kind of place that has great lines of sight for your FO is also likely going to be a great place for ATGM or GMG teams. Those guys will attract fire and get your FOs killed even if the enemy never actually saw the FO team. 

Very true. Hence my use of the word "places", rather than place.

[Erwin]

13 hours ago, Halmbarte said:

Another thing to keep in mind. The kind of place that has great lines of sight for your FO is also likely going to be a great place for ATGM or GMG teams. Those guys will attract fire and get your FOs killed even if the enemy never actually saw the FO team. 

H

Yes, xnt point.  Best to keep FO's away from all other friendly (and unfriendly) units.

[A Canadian Cat]

There is no doubt setting up FOs in a good place is challenging. You have some answers already.

Another thing to keep in mind they can call target slightly outside of their LOS - just over the back side of a hill for example. That means you can place them a little further back from where you would need to put a fire team to hit the same place. Another thing you should know is that they need to have visibility once spotting starts but they do not need viability to the target area the whole time the mission is being prepped. So, if your FO has a call time of X minutes you can pull them back in to cover for most of that time and just put them back into their observation position for the spotting rounds. I recommend moving them back when there is 1 or 2 minutes left in their prep time since spotting usually starts around there.

Good hunting.

[womble]

Like any infantry element that you want to remain unseen, use cover and concealment, Slow move commands from defilade into the back of concealing terrain.

You can see out of "forest" from further in than you can be seen. Trees on their own are not good concealment...

Make sure you put a short (generally circular) Target Arc on your observation elements (even scouts) and use directional, (even shorter) Target Arcs to set your element's facing once they're in position (you can generally go back to a circular self-protection Arc once they've settled down). I usually put a 25m-50m Arc on, just for self-defense in the event of surprises. If you do not restrict their fire, they will engage targets as if they are a rifle team...

If they are seeking elevation within a building, also use Slow movement, or they'll be easily spotted.

If you don't want to move them out of their hidey-hole as IanL suggests while they wait for their fire request to be processed, give them Hide orders while they're not needing to spot.

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, womble said:

If you don't want to move them out of their hidey-hole as IanL suggests while they wait for their fire request to be processed, give them Hide orders while they're not needing to spot.

Oh yes good suggestion. Sometime moving out of position is more dangerous than staying. Hide can really help lower your changes of the FO getting spotted if you have to stay.

[Warts 'n' all]

@wombleDoes make some good points. But, one can't help but ask, if Dickie Guy had hidden away how could he have saved Lorimer's penalty?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Warts 'n' all

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Warts 'n' all said:

if Dickie Guy had hidden away how could he have saved Lorimer's penalty

I'm hoping that doesn't mean you're of the Wimbledon persuasion (old or new)?

[Warts 'n' all]

6 hours ago, Vacillator said:

I'm hoping that doesn't mean you're of the Wimbledon persuasion (old or new)?

Nah, but I observed him in action a few times.

[chuckdyke]

On 8/17/2022 at 6:56 AM, kb6583 said:

the FO team comes under enemy fire and is no more! HOW do I get the FO team safely employed in order to take advantage of the firepower that it can access?

Position, he is hard to spot from 1 km away. 

[Brille]

The questions I have reading this:

1.) How far are your forward observers from the nearest enemy unit ?

2.) How are you moving them into position and into what cover ?

You should keep your FO at least out of small arms reach - meaning: 300-400m (not including hmg). At least at this distance any regular infantrymen should have a hard time effectively hitting your soldiers...but they still can hit something from time to time though.

The more problematic topic would be getting them into position and knowing the terrain from where they can secretly operate. If you move any unit inside the line of sight of an enemy unit, there will be a chance that they will spot them. So you should avoid this situation at all cost. Use obstacles like houses or dense forests between you and the enemy. Use every small dent, rise or ditch in the terrain to move unseen. If you have to cross open ground in line of sight you have to make exposure time as short as possible, meaning be quick about it. You don´t want to slowly wander in complete view of the enemy.

Your FO should use concealment, if they have reached their destination. High grass, bushes, undergrowth of a forest or buildings would be best for that. But note that you don´t want to simply walk into position because there might be a possibility that an enemy with binoculars will see them even at a distance. Better crawl (slow) the last 20 to 30m to your destination for maximum stealth and put a short cover arc around them. This way they won´t expose themselves by using their small arms if they see enemy infantry.

A little hint here: Forests look more dense than they really are, so be careful when moving around the edges. Better put them on "hunt" for short paths. You can combine this with cover arcs and "hide" commands. Cover arcs will make them stop only for what they see in these arcs or enemy fire. The hide command makes them...well...hide...if they saw an enemy or were fired uppon. That gives you the opportunity to break line of sight/line of fire and sneak away later.

 

If you play against a human opponent you should avoid any obvious positions to place your FO. For example single hill tops or church towers are the first things a player would take under fire, when spotting rounds are landing around him.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Brille

[Halmbarte]

53 minutes ago, Brille said:

The questions I have reading this:

1.) How far are your forward observers from the nearest enemy unit ?

2.) How are you moving them into position and into what cover ?

You should keep your FO at least out of small arms reach - meaning: 300-400m (not including hmg). At least at this distance any regular infantrymen should have a hard time effectively hitting your soldiers...but they still can hit something from time to time though.

The more problematic topic would be getting them into position and knowing the terrain from where they can secretly operate. If you move any unit inside the line of sight of an enemy unit, there will be a chance that they will spot them. So you should avoid this situation at all cost. Use obstacles like houses or dense forests between you and the enemy. Use every small dent, rise or ditch in the terrain to move unseen. If you have to cross open ground in line of sight you have to make exposure time as short as possible, meaning be quick about it. You don´t want to slowly wander in complete view of the enemy.

Your FO should use concealment, if they have reached their destination. High grass, bushes, undergrowth of a forest or buildings would be best for that. But note that you don´t want to simply walk into position because there might be a possibility that an enemy with binoculars will see them even at a distance. Better crawl (slow) the last 20 to 30m to your destination for maximum stealth and put a short cover arc around them. This way they won´t expose themselves by using their small arms if they see enemy infantry.

A little hint here: Forests look more dense than they really are, so be careful when moving around the edges. Better put them on "hunt" for short paths. You can combine this with cover arcs and "hide" commands. Cover arcs will make them stop only for what they see in these arcs or enemy fire. The hide command makes them...well...hide...if they saw an enemy or were fired uppon. That gives you the opportunity to break line of sight/line of fire and sneak away later.

 

If you play against a human opponent you should avoid any obvious positions to place your FO. For example single hill tops or church towers are the first things a player would take under fire, when spotting rounds are landing around him.

I generally make it a point to put a few HE rounds into church towers and the top floor of particular high rise buildings just on general principals. 

If that piece of key ground is really great your enemy probably thinks so too and they will make it a priority for fires. 

Fighting the Soviets and their rocket artillery will teach the value of 'don't be in the obvious impact zone' pretty quickly. 

I move FOs far enough forward for them to do their jobs. With the Americans you don't have to be so careful as they tend to have lots of FOs available and pretty much anyone can call for fire, just not as effectively. With the Sov/Russians I am more careful since FO are scarce and not all FOs can call all artillery. 

In the end though FOs too far back to get LOS are just as useless as dead FOs. 

H

 

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, Halmbarte said:

In the end though FOs too far back to get LOS are just as useless as dead FOs. 

 

 

Some jobs can be done by HQs like preparation barrages and large area fires. Also if it is neccasary to use HQ's at least I make sure his contacts is passed on to the FO. Play against a human player let an HQ plot harrass over a large area to mask the spotting rounds of the real mission. All in all the artillery remains to abstract, but to have a single Soviet Engineer HQ plot artillery while he is out of contact with his Company who is also out of contact with his Battalion HQ is ridiculous. To top it all up the Mortar FO has no radio and field telephones are not modelled in the game. So the Mortar FO also needs to be in close proximity of a radio HQ. To play a sensible game an attack needs to be armor focus as they have a good functioning C2. My rant for the day Soviet WW2 artillery best used for preplanned missions prior to an attack. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by chuckdyke

[Halmbarte]

12 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Some jobs can be done by HQs like preparation barrages and large area fires. Also if it is neccasary to use HQ's at least I make sure his contacts is passed on to the FO. Play against a human player let an HQ plot harrass over a large area to mask the spotting rounds of the real mission. All in all the artillery remains to abstract, but to have a single Soviet Engineer HQ plot artillery while he is out of contact with his Company who is also out of contact with his Battalion HQ is ridiculous. To top it all up the Mortar FO has no radio and field telephones are not modelled in the game. So the Mortar FO also needs to be in close proximity of a radio HQ. To play a sensible game an attack needs to be armor focus as they have a good functioning C2. My rant for the day Soviet WW2 artillery best used for preplanned missions prior to an attack. 

Soviet WWII artillery is pretty decent, by WWI standards. Soviet CW artillery is damn good, for WWII. 

H

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, Halmbarte said:

Soviet WWII artillery is pretty decent, by WWI standards. Soviet CW artillery is damn good, for WWII. 

Now we are in the 21st century not much has changed turn beautiful cities into rubble. Playing Black Sea, you need units with laser pointers to use precision artillery which in the Recon Units are on the IFVs even from Hull Down positions difficult to use. Not hard to see why they still use WW2 tactics. 

[Halmbarte]

32 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Now we are in the 21st century not much has changed turn beautiful cities into rubble. Playing Black Sea, you need units with laser pointers to use precision artillery which in the Recon Units are on the IFVs even from Hull Down positions difficult to use. Not hard to see why they still use WW2 tactics. 

Not to get too much into current events & politics, but when you have an abundance of artillery and a serious shortage of infantry, it does make sense to use the artillery to pulverize everything in front of you so the few grunts you actually have have a walkover. 

Not that that makes the Russian tactics any less of a war crime, mind you.

H 

[chuckdyke]

Just now, Halmbarte said:

it does make sense to use the artillery to pulverize everything in front of you so the few grunts you actually have have a walkover. 

I would have made the production of precision munitions a priority. But I have the impression that laser guided munitions are out of date. The warning systems on AFVs seems to be effective. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes in regard to digital warfare but information operations have the priority. What will decide is that the support of the population is on the defenders side. 

[Halmbarte]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

I would have made the production of precision munitions a priority. But I have the impression that laser guided munitions are out of date. The warning systems on AFVs seems to be effective. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes in regard to digital warfare but information operations have the priority. What will decide is that the support of the population is on the defenders side. 

The modern Russian govt hasn't made actual serial production of weapons a priority. They are surviving off the remaining stocks of the Soviet Union, and the Sov couldn't afford mass production of precision weapons. 

Not that NATO has massive capability to mass produce precision weapons either. More capability than Russia, for sure, but western stockpiles are being drawn down heavily too. 

Modern warfare consuming more munitions than planned for is not a new problem. It happened in WWI, in the various Arab-Israeli wars, and probably wouldn't have been an unknown problem to Caesar. 

H

[chuckdyke]

We start to move away from the topic which is FO's. Firing positions and observation positions should be established when you plan COA. With stuff like Laser Pointers, we have a new dimension. UAV's don't have a long life either but they are cheap apparently. WW2 before I was retired they mentioned dignity of risk. I think it applies in CM too. It is like sports like skydiving or more down scuba diving. If you do silly things an accident is round the corner. FO shouldn't take potshots at the enemy in RL they don't but in the game we need to apply a short cover arc. An FO needs cover or concealment preferably both. But an obvious place is not concealment only cover. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by chuckdyke