Defeat a heavy defended sector

[Chibot Mk IX]

Old Chinese proverb says : “three Stooges top one Zhuge Liang”

OK, guys, looking for some advice on this scenario. This is the third mission of campaign Regaining The Initiative. I achieved a tactical victory in mission 2 , so that brings me to mission 3A Romistrov's Onslaught. Well, how to say this mission 3A…. If this battle happens in real life I will curse General Rokossovsky for the rest of my life (and probably I will be shot by NKVD in two hours ) . All I want to do is to finish this scenario asap, go back to mission 2 , suffer a defeat and goes to infantry focused mission 3B. Bunker cleaning mission might be easier compare to a head-on clash with elite German panzer force.

Here is the map. After 40min recon and skirmish battle with German screening force I have a clear pic of battlefield now. I am facing 24 Pz IVs plus 5 Nashorn. There could be more panzers just arrived battlefield as a reinforcement, my IL-2 is shooting something at the map edge. ATG is a concern.  German Panzer’s main battle line is about 1300m away from Soviets planned jumping out position, their forward defense position is about 500m away

In next 1 hour I have to defeat German Panzers, cross two rivers, reach the mission objective at the far end of the map. Oh, yes, forgot to mention that there is a huge flood plain between two rivers. There is no way around.

To achieve a breakthrough. I have a IL-2, the pilot randomly shoot things on the map , I am disappointing to see the cannon rounds fail to penetrate anything but the same time I am glad he has not mistaken my T-34/85 for Panthers so far. I have total 31 T-34/85s (lost one during skirmishing battle)  , 5 SU-85 and 5 SU-122 (short barrel one, not ISU-122 with long guns). I also have one recon infantry co. one rifle co. and one SMG co. Fire support side I have 3 section of 76mm guns/82mm Mortar. Their HE are low, I spent a lot of ammo on suspected ATG position, later try to use mortar to kill Nashorn but didn’t achieve any hits. They have total 98 rounds of smoke rounds left.

One thing for sure, I cannot move my infantry units any further, they will be slaughtered in the open field by 75mm cannon fire. I must use tank force to lead the attack. I don’t have enough smoke to cover the whole front. So I must use smoke to block part of German Panzers LOF, jump out of my position defeat the other part of Panzers. Then next step can be flexible, I can either wait for smoke to disperse, winning a long range shoot out game in round 2. Or cross the river, mud, engage the Germans at close range.

Question is: Where I should drop smoke ?

Wind is gentle , from west. That means it is upside down blow smoke from German position to Soviets.

 

Option 1

Use smoke to block the German’s right wing. Smoke barrage marked in RED. My tank force concentrate on the left wing, defeat the German forward defense and part of the German left wing defense (circled in BLUE)? The smoke should hide my force from 5 Nashorn’s LOF  

 

Or Option 2

Drop smoke on center right, block German left wing plus Nashorn’s LOF. Soviets jump out through three different directions and trying to defeat German right wing plus the forward defense first?

 

Which one is better?

 

Thx

[landser]

The high-level maps shots don't feature terrain relief, so it's difficult to make a proper suggestion, since I can't know about line of sight to and from the enemy positions as your forces move forward. But, based on what I do see I like option 2 better. That blocks the Nashorns right? I'll take my chances with my massed T-34s on the left in a straight up duel with the Mark IVs while denying the Nashorns fire from the quarter.

Of course, in my experience, smoke doesn't last long enough and if those Nashorns unmask while you're embroiled in a fight with the other German armor you get caught in a bit of a crossfire. A successful duel on the left, and advance, will turn the flank on the Nashorns and without a turret they'll need to pivot to engage and present flanking shots (at least partial) to any overwatch you leave in position, assuming they have LOS to the enemy positions.

Looks a tough nut, especially if all of this is open and there's LOS everywhere. Good hunting commander!

[landser]

Quote

Old Chinese proverb says : “three Stooges top one Zhuge Liang”

Well, of course

[Sgt.Squarehead]

6 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

This is the third mission of campaign Regaining The Initiative.

Where can I find this campaign please?

Edited January 27, 2022 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Artkin]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Where can I find this campaign please?

https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-red-thunder/cm-red-thunder-campaigns/rokossovkys-impasse-cmrt-campaign/

Edited January 27, 2022 by Artkin

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Without seeing the terrain and doing a proper analysis I would say option 2 too simply because the distance to cover to get across the rivers and swamps appears to be the shortest on your left flank. Attack in echelons and overrun the enemy’s right flank and hook round and roll up his left rather than spreading your forces.

You also don’t have to necessarily use smoke if you’re worried about it not lasting long, you could use HE if the ground is dry enough as it will kick up some dust. Or both, HE to keep him buttoned and smoke to obscure your push.

Again this assumes a lot, is the ground even passable to tanks between the water obstacles? It looks quite brown and therefore boggy?

MMM

Edited January 27, 2022 by Monty's Mighty Moustache

[Rinaldi]

Yes, some shots from the weeds would definitely help us help you, here. 

[domfluff]

Yes, hard to come up with specifics.

In the broadest terms though, you'll certainly want to focus on a single portion of the front. Since that looks like there's a solid line of enemy armour across the entire width of the map, it doesn't look as though that's possible to do with manoeuvre. That's... well, aside from that not being terribly interesting, that means that the only tool you have to work with will be artillery.

You'll need a fire plan to shape the battlefield for you, to create a local advantage, which your armour can than exploit. That will likely be a combination of HE and smoke rounds, depending on what assets are actually available.

In terms of planning the actual attack, your forces are likely to be better at closer ranges against the Panzers.

Without knowing all of the specifics, this is the kind of thing I'd start looking at:

The forward element (yellow) appears to be out of position and isolated, so you can deal with that en masse with little difficulty, since you'll be attacking with 6:1 odds or so.

If you head to the right, the green element looks as though that would be unable to engage due to the terrain. If so, you're passively eliminating a bunch of the opposition.

The orange area is then the focus of the fire mission, giving you some cover through smoke and suppression, and allowing you to focus your mass against the platoon to the right rear, another 6:1 attack or close to it.

When that's dealt with, the focus is on pushing through, and bypassing the position, if at all possible. There's presumably no need to turn back and re-engage the Panzer line, depending on the precise mission parameters.
 

[Chibot Mk IX]

Thank you all.

Sorry, I should press 1 , go down to a ground view level. I will do an unprofessional terrain analysis later in this post.

I played five more turns. Things changed. First, my inf plt ambushed by German inf, I brought up a plt of T-34 to support the inf but that drag me into an unwanted tank gun duel with part of German right wing and the forward defense Panzers. In the end I was lucky to pull this off. Trade one T-34 with one Pz IV, I was really really lucky. Then,  another reinforcement show up , that’s unexpected , I blame the vague mission briefing. German has their reinforcement too but overall, I have better reinforcement.

Now I have 2 IS-2 (late) + 2 IS-2 (mid) + 34 T-34/85 + 5 SU-85 + 5 SU-122 + 98 smoke rounds + 96 152mm artillery rounds. vs 23 Pz IV + 5 Nashorn + 3 (possible 4)   Jagdpanzer IV 75mm/L48 version.

The increased tank number makes me favor option 2 more. Because option 1 gives a very narrow funnel route to get into fire position. I have 48 AFV here. It’s over crowded. Any small mistake could cause a terrible traffic jam which leads to my tank forces be sent into firefight in piecemeal.  

Anyway, domfluff thanks for your thought, the map is flat like a frying pan. There is a crest on the map. I marked in orange. Pass this crest and you will have visual contact with German. With CM’s black magic that makes MK1 eyeballs to see targets behind trees , 30+ German AFV firepower can be a remarkable welcome party.

Here is the view from position 1,   forward Pz IVs are in a prefect reverse slope defense position. You will have to deal with both forward elements and main defense line here.

Position 2 , it appears to be concealed by trees , but you know this game can generate some unpleasant surprise . Anyway , part of German force have a clear LOF on this position.

 

2.1,  turn left from position 2. Here you have good flank shots on German forward elements. If you can accept a hail of fire from the main defense line.

2.2, this is the planned river crossing point.  Behind that the flood plain/mud terrain is the narrowest part on the map. That's good because I can’t afford a whole tank co. bogged in mud.

3, an excellent place to flank shot forward elements. But the avenue of approach is to narrow, I will assign only one tank plt here.

(I will upload the ground view from 4 and 5 later, can’t find the screenshot. They must be on another laptop.)

So, here is the updated plan, I will delay the final attack for 20 more min. The 152mm and 76mm needs FO team, and there is only one FO team on the map. It takes 19min for 152mm to target Nashorns.  As soon as the fire mission confirmed I will let FO team start the 76mm smoke mission. Hopefully 152mm barrage will kill some if not all the Nashorns.  IS-2 will lead the attack. Hopefully they will absorb enough 75mm APC rounds before some lucky shots find IS-2's weak points on the armor plate. With gentle wind, 76mm and 82mm smoke should last 5-6 min. It is highly unlikely that I can make  two T-34/85 tank co. cross the river in less than 5 min. I have to accept a long-range duel. Must win the first fire fight fast, then wait for the smoke disperse, win the round 2 fire fight.

[Chibot Mk IX]

Below is position # 4,  waypoint + area fire points to German's left flank

 

 

# 5, here you have a LOF to German's center and right flank

 

 

[Erwin]

Very good-looking screen shots of terrain.  What mods?  

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Looks like the stock textures to me. 

[dbsapp]

On 1/26/2022 at 9:24 PM, Chibot Mk IX said:

three Stooges top one Zhuge Liang”

Do you mean 三个臭皮匠，合个诸葛亮?

Like 3 idiots are better than 1 clever person?

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 1/28/2022 at 1:35 PM, dbsapp said:

Do you mean 三个臭皮匠，合个诸葛亮?

Like 3 idiots are better than 1 clever person?

a better translation would be 3 Mr. Nobody 

[Chibot Mk IX]

 

On 1/27/2022 at 9:35 PM, Chibot Mk IX said:

So, here is the updated plan, I will delay the final attack for 20 more min. The 152mm and 76mm needs FO team, and there is only one FO team on the map. It takes 19min for 152mm to target Nashorns.  As soon as the fire mission confirmed I will let FO team start the 76mm smoke mission. Hopefully 152mm barrage will kill some if not all the Nashorns.  IS-2 will lead the attack. Hopefully they will absorb enough 75mm APC rounds before some lucky shots find IS-2's weak points on the armor plate. With gentle wind, 76mm and 82mm smoke should last 5-6 min. It is highly unlikely that I can make  two T-34/85 tank co. cross the river in less than 5 min. I have to accept a long-range duel. Must win the first fire fight fast, then wait for the smoke disperse, win the round 2 fire fight.

Finally finished this mission.

The 152mm mission on Nashorns is disappointing. It only destroyed 2  Nashorns. The rest might be damaged because later they didn't react to my push very well. Only 1 T-34/85 lost to the long 88. 

I twisted my original plan , now it combines both option 1 and option 2. 

76mm field gun smoke block the center part. two 82mm mtr smoke mission, one is to block the forward defense PZ IVs and the other is to block the 4 x JPz IV's LOF.

 

 

So that my left wing and right wing can engage German right wing at the same time. (Smoke marked in red and LOF marked in yellow line). Meanwhile as soon as my right wing move from the covered jump out position they will also need to engage part of the German's left wing. 

 

I made a mistake here. I underestimate the time need for the 76mm smoke screen to be formed (I forgot they have low LOF). So when the T-34/85 and SU-85s moved into the fire position, the center part of the Panzers' LOF is not blocked by smoke. fortunately for me, the workhorse Panzer IV is no longer able to keep pace with T-34, especially at >1000m long distances duel. The T-34/85 can survive 2-3 penetration. There is even one T-34/85 survived after 5 penetration. And one APHE hit PzIV, it is done. So I slowly gaining fire superior. Later, with mortar smoke screen disappeared, the five forward deployed Pz IVs were quickly destroyed by fire from three sides. The JPz IV caused some trouble, including one shot an IS-2 and a T-34/85. But they were destroyed or damaged in the following couple min. 

Now with IS-2 in lead, I begin the river crossing. 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Chibot Mk IX

[Chibot Mk IX]

The remaining PzG Infantry put up a fierce resistance but it is fruitless.

 

 

 

and after another 15min of fight, German AI surrender

This mission has a bug on VP , hey I am not tactical defeat here